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  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,700
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    That quote with a standard atmospheric was for hot water atmospheric to mod/con. Yes the range I give would be higher on a steam to hot water mod/con conversion.

    So you could come in, convert my atmospheric WM EG series single pipe steam system to HW with a modcon and save me more than 68% on my fuel?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
    edited September 2019
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    @ChrisJ

    Every project started with a evaluation of the existing equipment. If I took a look at one of the great jobs done by Steamhead or the Steam Whisperer I would have to take into account that they beat me to the job and already updated the equipment. It would be performing better than average. So my range would be much lower and the client would think the money is not worth it.

    Most jobs were not done by wallies. They were poor installations with lots of opportunity. If I looked around the boiler room and saw huge mistakes with big losses then I would quote a even bigger range.

    I would examine the equipment thoroughly. I spent a lot of time in the boiler room analyzing the existing equipment to get a understanding on the present performance. I would do a combustion analysis. Look at all the heat emitters. Walk around the whole house and look for fixable problems.

    At home I would design several solutions and options for fuel savings. I would call the client and throw him some rough numbers to get an idea of what he is willing to spend. I would then write up a final quote and go over to his house and pitch him my estimate with the fuel savings guarantee and hope he gave me the job!!!!
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,700
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    @ChrisJ

    Every project started with a evaluation of the existing equipment. If I took a look at one of the great jobs done by Steamhead or the Steam Whisperer I would we have to take into account that they beat me to the job and already updated the equipment. It would be performing better than average. So my range would be much lower and the client would think the money is not worth it.

    If I looked around the boiler room and saw huge mistakes with big losses then I would quote a even bigger range.

    I would examine the equipment thoroughly. I spent a lot of time in the boiler room analyzing the existing equipment to get a understanding on the present performance. I would do a combustion analysis. Look at all the heat emitters. Walk around the whole house and look for fixable problems.

    At home I would design several solutions and options for fuel savings. I would call the client and throw him some rough numbers to get an idea of what he is willing to spend. I would then write up a final quote and go over to his house and pitch him my estimate with the fuel savings guarantee and hope he gave me the job!!!!

    @Steamhead
    Should I have @John Ruhnke come evaluate my system?


    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    "Every project started with a evaluation of the existing equipment. If I took a look at one of the great jobs done by Steamhead or the Steam Whisperer I would we have to take into account that they beat me to the job and already updated the equipment. It would be performing better than average. So my range would be much lower and the client would think the money is not worth it."

    @John Ruhnke ,

    This is exactly what we are saying! So please, give us an absolute mimimum % improvement guarantee you will achieve with your modcon replacement of a top shelf @Steamhead steam job.

    My entire gas bill last winter was $1250. 1926 construction, 1000sqft installed EDR, not a shred of insulation, 3500sqft, heated garage, 70F indoor temp in Cleveland Ohio, partial vacuum steam. As I see it there isn't a lot of money to work with here for new equipment on a 10-15 year life.... well maybe at 68% off this fuel bill we could start talking. Ah, but then how many service calls will be required? You don't address that anywhere. I haven't had one in 26 years. Obviously your system can't touch the all in annual cost performance I have going with my current system with a boiler now in its 63rd year. Crazy as it sounds clearly the most all in annual cost effective thing to do when this boiler fails would be to do the same thing over again if that were possible. Sadly it isn't. I can't buy a boiler of this quality today. Wow, and I thought technology had improved things.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    @PMJ

    Sure I would be happy to. Just pay for my Airline ticket and I will fly out and complete a full evaluation of your system.
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
    andersonj56
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    @PMJ

    Sure I would be happy to. Just pay for my Airline ticket and I will fly out and complete a full evaluation of your system.

    Maybe you meant this for @ChrisJ ?

    I had a different question above.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
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    > @PMJ said:
    > Crazy as it sounds clearly the most all in annual cost effective thing to do when this boiler fails would be to do the same thing over again if that were possible. Sadly it isn't. I can't buy a boiler of this quality today. Wow, and I thought technology had improved things.

    Todays throw away society is so green isn't it?
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,700
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    JakeCK said:

    > @PMJ said:

    > Crazy as it sounds clearly the most all in annual cost effective thing to do when this boiler fails would be to do the same thing over again if that were possible. Sadly it isn't. I can't buy a boiler of this quality today. Wow, and I thought technology had improved things.



    Todays throw away society is so green isn't it?

    The TWO 8 year old appliances I'm junking this week while my 86 year old refrigerator continues to purr suggest not so much.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    JakeCK
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    ChrisJ said:

    JakeCK said:

    > @PMJ said:

    > Crazy as it sounds clearly the most all in annual cost effective thing to do when this boiler fails would be to do the same thing over again if that were possible. Sadly it isn't. I can't buy a boiler of this quality today. Wow, and I thought technology had improved things.



    Todays throw away society is so green isn't it?

    The TWO 8 year old appliances I'm junking this week while my 86 year old refrigerator continues to purr suggest not so much.

    C'mon @ChrisJ . Get with it. You're paying extra every year to use a little less electricity and save the planet. Do your part with a smile!

    I guess it doesn't take any energy to make all those additional appliances. Hmmmm.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
    JakeCK
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    @pmj

    Let me see if I can answer your question better. I misunderstood.

    You asked "This is exactly what we are saying! So please, give us an absolute mimimum % improvement guarantee you will achieve with your modcon replacement of a top shelf @Steamhead steam job."

    If I walked in on one of Steamheads jobs I would just compliment the work and all the great things he did. I would tell the homeowner that he was in good hands. The system will be reliable, last a long time and save him money in energy. I would say that there is nothing I could do for him that would make any financial sense. The cost of converting from a Steamhead job would not be covered by the much smaller improvement in fuel savings. I like steam. I have clients where I changed out the boiler made improvements and kept the steam.

    I would then hop in my van and look for the next opportunity out there because there is a lot of poorly installed projects that will deliver much bigger profits for me.
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,700
    edited September 2019
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    @pmj

    Let me see if I can answer your question better. I misunderstood.

    You asked "This is exactly what we are saying! So please, give us an absolute mimimum % improvement guarantee you will achieve with your modcon replacement of a top shelf @Steamhead steam job."

    If I walked in on one of Steamheads jobs I would just compliment the work and all the great things he did. I would tell the homeowner that he was in good hands. The system will be reliable, last a long time and save him money in energy. I would say that there is nothing I could do for him that would make any financial sense. The cost of converting from a Steamhead job would not be covered by the much smaller improvement in fuel savings. I like steam. I have clients where I changed out the boiler made improvements and kept the steam.

    I would then hop in my van and look for the next opportunity out there because there is a lot of poorly installed projects that will deliver much bigger profits for me.

    Ok.
    SO,

    Assuming a properly running steam system...that Steamhead worked on etc.

    What fuel savings would there be converting the system over to hot water with a modcon? What's the percentage? A rough estimate, best case..........

    That's what keeps getting asked.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
    edited September 2019
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    > @PMJ said:
    > (Quote)
    > C'mon @ChrisJ . Get with it. You're paying extra every year to use a little less electricity and save the planet. Do your part with a smile!
    >
    > I guess it doesn't take any energy to make all those additional appliances. Hmmmm.

    If it wasn't for my wife and kid I would be perfectly happy living in a polebarn out in the middle of no where with nothing but a wood stove for heat. Growing up we that's what we used. After two years of paying for propane my mother said **** that and installed a wood fireplace insert. I think living simple like that is the best thing for the enviroment.
  • PMJ
    PMJ Member Posts: 1,265
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    @pmj

    Let me see if I can answer your question better. I misunderstood.

    You asked "This is exactly what we are saying! So please, give us an absolute mimimum % improvement guarantee you will achieve with your modcon replacement of a top shelf @Steamhead steam job."

    If I walked in on one of Steamheads jobs I would just compliment the work and all the great things he did. I would tell the homeowner that he was in good hands. The system will be reliable, last a long time and save him money in energy. I would say that there is nothing I could do for him that would make any financial sense. The cost of converting from a Steamhead job would not be covered by the much smaller improvement in fuel savings. I like steam. I have clients where I changed out the boiler made improvements and kept the steam.

    I would then hop in my van and look for the next opportunity out there because there is a lot of poorly installed projects that will deliver much bigger profits for me.

    Thanks much for this @John Ruhnke .

    @ChrisJ the answer is above. He has confirmed that most of the improvement comes from de-knuckleheading systems and not straight up mod-con vs steam.
    1926 1000EDR Mouat 2 pipe vapor system,1957 Bryant Boiler 463,000 BTU input, Natural vacuum operation with single solenoid vent, Custom PLC control
  • JakeCK
    JakeCK Member Posts: 1,356
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    > @ChrisJ said:
    > (Quote)
    > The TWO 8 year old appliances I'm junking this week while my 86 year old refrigerator continues to purr suggest not so much.

    GE Monitor top?
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    I already posted in a previous post on this thread, comparing same condition to same condition from the Euro study. I believe Steamhead could install a above average system so just look at those savings and figure a little less. A lot has to do with the quality of the equipment, system design and installer.

    I can either quote somebody else's study or evaluate a project and then quote my own projections based on what I find and back it by my guarantee.

    So I am sorry but I don't have enough info to answer your question. Again I would not quote any thing if I thought the equipment was new and the savings small.
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,700
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    > @JakeCK said:
    > > @ChrisJ said:
    > > (Quote)
    > > The TWO 8 year old appliances I'm junking this week while my 86 year old refrigerator continues to purr suggest not so much.
    >
    > GE Monitor top?

    Yes sir.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    JakeCK
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,842
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    ChrisJ said:

    @Steamhead
    Should I have @John Ruhnke come evaluate my system?

    Up to you, but I doubt it would be worth the time.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,287
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    Let's get back on track and re-focus on helping @noran01 with his specific system.

    I'd also like to take a moment to remind everyone of the site rules: https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual

    I think we're all for efficient systems and yes, we can disagree on points, but please be respectful of one another in the process.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,318
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    Quite. First, my apologies to @Erin Holohan Haskell and others -- I sometimes get rather spun up by things, and I'm sorry and I apologise.

    To go back to @noran01 original query. I still think that his (or her!) best bet will be to get a really good steam pro. in there -- like @Danny Scully , for example -- to figure out a new boiler and a reconfiguration of the steam piping to free up basement space. Haven't seen the space myself, but I'd be kind of surprised if there weren't a creative way to do it.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,287
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    Thank you, @Jamie Hall.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • mikeg2015
    mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,194
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    Lets keep this simple. IF you spend lets say $10k on the conversion. What’s the ROI? realistically you save maybe $1000 per heating season. 10 year payback to remove some of hte historical character of the home.

    For finishing the basement... to each their own, but a big soffit with a well insulated steam pipe in it isn’t a big deal to me at least. In my house it’s still 7-1/2’ off the floor anyway at hte higher points. The lowest points just 6-1/2’. So 1/2 hte basement is suitable to finish.