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Commercial Hot Water

pecmsg
pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
We have a Commercial Customer (Vineyard) that has 2 Noritz N-132 380K BTU water heaters getting on in age (15) and looking to replace them.

When washing they could go thru 150 gals in an hour but then flow slows to near zero.

What would be the best way of meeting the demand and still have reliability?

Comments

  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 691
    Is there room for two standard efficiencies and storage tanks?
    Never stop learning.
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532

    Is there room for two standard efficiencies and storage tanks?

    Yes
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,194
    pecmsg said:

    We have a Commercial Customer (Vineyard) that has 2 Noritz N-132 380K BTU water heaters getting on in age (15) and looking to replace them.

    When washing they could go thru 150 gals in an hour but then flow slows to near zero.

    What would be the best way of meeting the demand and still have reliability?

    Have they been reliable over their 15 year work life? Tankless would eliminate standby loss, possibly higher efficiency.

    Is the load profile fairly consistent?
    Tanks would need different venting, possibly combustion air into the space. In commercial applications maybe a 5-7 year life expectancy fin a residential tank tase days?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mike_Sheppard
    Mike_Sheppard Member Posts: 691
    How about putting high efficiency back in but with a “stratified” storage tank. I have never seen this actually used but I work with a lot of Aerco heaters and they offer this option. It’s basically a domestic buffer tank. Would help smooth out the operation of the heaters with swinging loads.

    Just an option to look in to.
    Never stop learning.
    Zman
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    With 2 units they have a back up so that's how they dealt with reliability. I've had 4 calls in 3 years.
    What I think has happened is major usage is for a short period once a day after that little usage. I cleaned the strainers 3 years ago and not plugged but dirty, that was after 10+ years. Pulled them last fall and very little debris.

    I think these are extremely oversized for the usage. That's why I'm leaning toward 2) small 90+ heaters but the problem with 180°f water is condensing worth it?
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,194
    I doubt you will find residential water heaters that go to 180F, if that is what you need? High temperature operation really shortens the life of tank type heaters, plan on a possible 3 year replacement plan for high temperature tank operation.
    I think you will need to purchase a commercial tank.

    Absolutely install a high quality listed mix valve if there are restrooms, etc connected.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    hot_rod said:

    I doubt you will find residential water heaters that go to 180F, if that is what you need? High temperature operation really shortens the life of tank type heaters, plan on a possible 3 year replacement plan for high temperature tank operation.
    I think you will need to purchase a commercial tank.

    Absolutely install a high quality listed mix valve if there are restrooms, etc connected.

    Agreed Commercial units

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 2,782
    Hi, You might want to look into the AO Smith Cyclone or similar condensing commercial heaters.
    Yours, Larry
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,194
    From the Cyclone install manual. Do you absolutely need 180? If it is just for a dishwasher, maybe a POU booster?

    That high temperature really increases mineral precipitation, coating of the coils and of course reduced performance and efficiency. The manual mentions scale build up also.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • pecmsg
    pecmsg Member Posts: 3,532
    140 - 150° during Production
    160° during bottling but that's less then a month a year!
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 18,194
    A Cyclone type will give you more options for venting, compared to a typical atmospheric tank. Possibly variable burner firing.
    Don't expect much condensing mode operation unless the tank temperature falls into condensing range as explained in the manual.

    If they drain all the HW out during a production run, you would have enough cold in the tank to allow condensing, possibly. It comes down to how they use the HW in the building.

    Seems the load profile matches nicely with tankless operation, maybe a hi- lo, small size just for sinks, etc, larger unit fires as demand ramps up?

    I saw some tankless heaters built onto a large storage tanks at AHR show, Rheem maybe? So you get the best, or worst of both :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,827
    How about lochinar or Lars .Replaced 2 atmospheric 750 that where piped into 3 80 gallon tanks w 2 Lars 650 direct vent mods into 2 80 gallon tanks lead lag tanks run at 160 and then 2 mixing valves for baths and kitchen the 160 goes to some dishwasher station located through out the building ,large scale catering hall that also caterers to outside venues ,when Friday’s come this place is hopping and yet to not have enough hot water unlike before .This is the second or third job using either boiler and have great results both in never ending hot water and lower gas consumption .peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Tim Potter
    Tim Potter Member Posts: 272
    might want to read this before you install cyclone,

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1376483#Comment_1376483

    cheers, Tim
    Winter Park, CO & Lenexa, KS
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,498
    edited September 2019
    I have read quite a bit on HTP Phoenix water heaters. The load you talk about is not that much. Maybe a 55 gals /199k btu unit. I have only installed 1 but our local gas utility installed a bunch and their tech group have been pleasantly pleased. Maybe do 2 for the sake of backup. They are not cheap although. I would lean away from cyclone.
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,052
    Two 150 MBH Lochinvar Armor Commercial water heaters and one 120-gallon storage tank gets this done.https://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/AWN-07.pdf
    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting
    Plumbing in NYC or in NJ.
    Take his class.
  • smansker
    smansker Member Posts: 2
    We have 4 Armor units and have had problems with the HX - beware. We don't have hard water and after 2 years already need to replace one of them. I'm being told it failed due to the water quality. It's on city water and has be rated some of the best in the country. We are going to flush the ones left 2X year.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,433
    smansker said:

    We have 4 Armor units and have had problems with the HX - beware. We don't have hard water and after 2 years already need to replace one of them. I'm being told it failed due to the water quality. It's on city water and has be rated some of the best in the country. We are going to flush the ones left 2X year.

    @smansker
    This is not really the kind of site where you just jump on and bash a product on random threads.

    Please tell us some specifics about your situation. Do you have a copy of the water quality report you could share? Why did they fail, was it the inside or outside of the heat exchanger? How are they piped and how were the circulators sized? Do you have pictures of the installation?

    If you would like help determining the cause of the failure, please start a new post, and let's work through it.

    BTW, I have a >half dozen of these installed in areas with fairly aggressive water and they are all running great.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    pecmsgErin Holohan Haskellratio
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 1,982
    Zman said:

    smansker said:

    We have 4 Armor units and have had problems with the HX - beware. We don't have hard water and after 2 years already need to replace one of them. I'm being told it failed due to the water quality. It's on city water and has be rated some of the best in the country. We are going to flush the ones left 2X year.

    @smansker
    This is not really the kind of site where you just jump on and bash a product on random threads.

    Please tell us some specifics about your situation. Do you have a copy of the water quality report you could share? Why did they fail, was it the inside or outside of the heat exchanger? How are they piped and how were the circulators sized? Do you have pictures of the installation?

    If you would like help determining the cause of the failure, please start a new post, and let's work through it.

    BTW, I have a >half dozen of these installed in areas with fairly aggressive water and they are all running great.
    I agree. Thank you, @Zman.
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