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Commercial Hot Water

pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 963
We have a Commercial Customer (Vineyard) that has 2 Noritz N-132 380K BTU water heaters getting on in age (15) and looking to replace them.

When washing they could go thru 150 gals in an hour but then flow slows to near zero.

What would be the best way of meeting the demand and still have reliability?

Comments

  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Member Posts: 615
    Is there room for two standard efficiencies and storage tanks?
    Never stop learning.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 963

    Is there room for two standard efficiencies and storage tanks?

    Yes
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 12,025
    pecmsg said:

    We have a Commercial Customer (Vineyard) that has 2 Noritz N-132 380K BTU water heaters getting on in age (15) and looking to replace them.

    When washing they could go thru 150 gals in an hour but then flow slows to near zero.

    What would be the best way of meeting the demand and still have reliability?

    Have they been reliable over their 15 year work life? Tankless would eliminate standby loss, possibly higher efficiency.

    Is the load profile fairly consistent?
    Tanks would need different venting, possibly combustion air into the space. In commercial applications maybe a 5-7 year life expectancy fin a residential tank tase days?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Member Posts: 615
    How about putting high efficiency back in but with a “stratified” storage tank. I have never seen this actually used but I work with a lot of Aerco heaters and they offer this option. It’s basically a domestic buffer tank. Would help smooth out the operation of the heaters with swinging loads.

    Just an option to look in to.
    Never stop learning.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 963
    With 2 units they have a back up so that's how they dealt with reliability. I've had 4 calls in 3 years.
    What I think has happened is major usage is for a short period once a day after that little usage. I cleaned the strainers 3 years ago and not plugged but dirty, that was after 10+ years. Pulled them last fall and very little debris.

    I think these are extremely oversized for the usage. That's why I'm leaning toward 2) small 90+ heaters but the problem with 180°f water is condensing worth it?
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 12,025
    I doubt you will find residential water heaters that go to 180F, if that is what you need? High temperature operation really shortens the life of tank type heaters, plan on a possible 3 year replacement plan for high temperature tank operation.
    I think you will need to purchase a commercial tank.

    Absolutely install a high quality listed mix valve if there are restrooms, etc connected.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 963
    hot_rod said:

    I doubt you will find residential water heaters that go to 180F, if that is what you need? High temperature operation really shortens the life of tank type heaters, plan on a possible 3 year replacement plan for high temperature tank operation.
    I think you will need to purchase a commercial tank.

    Absolutely install a high quality listed mix valve if there are restrooms, etc connected.

    Agreed Commercial units

  • Larry WeingartenLarry Weingarten Member Posts: 1,608
    Hi, You might want to look into the AO Smith Cyclone or similar condensing commercial heaters.
    Yours, Larry
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 12,025
    From the Cyclone install manual. Do you absolutely need 180? If it is just for a dishwasher, maybe a POU booster?

    That high temperature really increases mineral precipitation, coating of the coils and of course reduced performance and efficiency. The manual mentions scale build up also.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • pecmsgpecmsg Member Posts: 963
    140 - 150° during Production
    160° during bottling but that's less then a month a year!
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 12,025
    A Cyclone type will give you more options for venting, compared to a typical atmospheric tank. Possibly variable burner firing.
    Don't expect much condensing mode operation unless the tank temperature falls into condensing range as explained in the manual.

    If they drain all the HW out during a production run, you would have enough cold in the tank to allow condensing, possibly. It comes down to how they use the HW in the building.

    Seems the load profile matches nicely with tankless operation, maybe a hi- lo, small size just for sinks, etc, larger unit fires as demand ramps up?

    I saw some tankless heaters built onto a large storage tanks at AHR show, Rheem maybe? So you get the best, or worst of both :)
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 12,025
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • clammyclammy Member Posts: 2,351
    How about lochinar or Lars .Replaced 2 atmospheric 750 that where piped into 3 80 gallon tanks w 2 Lars 650 direct vent mods into 2 80 gallon tanks lead lag tanks run at 160 and then 2 mixing valves for baths and kitchen the 160 goes to some dishwasher station located through out the building ,large scale catering hall that also caterers to outside venues ,when Friday’s come this place is hopping and yet to not have enough hot water unlike before .This is the second or third job using either boiler and have great results both in never ending hot water and lower gas consumption .peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Tim PotterTim Potter Member Posts: 250
    might want to read this before you install cyclone,

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1376483#Comment_1376483

    cheers, Tim
    Winter Park, CO & Lenexa, KS
  • tim smithtim smith Member Posts: 2,292
    edited September 4
    I have read quite a bit on HTP Phoenix water heaters. The load you talk about is not that much. Maybe a 55 gals /199k btu unit. I have only installed 1 but our local gas utility installed a bunch and their tech group have been pleasantly pleased. Maybe do 2 for the sake of backup. They are not cheap although. I would lean away from cyclone.
  • JohnNYJohnNY Member Posts: 2,372
    Two 150 MBH Lochinvar Armor Commercial water heaters and one 120-gallon storage tank gets this done.https://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/AWN-07.pdf
    For installations, troubleshooting, and private consulting services, find John "JohnNY" Cataneo here at :
    "72°F Mechanical, LLC"
    Or email John at [email protected]
    John is the Boilers and Hydronic Heating Systems Course Instructor at NYC's Mechanics Institute, a professional Master Plumber, licensed by The Department of Buildings of The City of New York, and works extensively in NYC while consulting for clients in and out of state.
    John also oversees mechanical installations and maintenance for metro-area clients with his family's company, Gateway Plumbing and Heating along with his brother/business partner.
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