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Legionaires Kills at Sheraton in Atlanta.

IronmanIronman Posts: 5,091Member
Bob Boan


You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.

Comments

  • ZmanZman Posts: 4,975Member
    I am afraid this is the tip of the iceberg. People with symptoms are often misdiagnosed with pneumonia. We don't know how widespread it is because we rarely test for it.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • IronmanIronman Posts: 5,091Member
    I'm convinced that the vast majority of elderly that die of pneumonia in care facilities, die of Legionella.
    Bob Boan


    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Posts: 529Member
    edited August 8
    @Ironman I just took over service for the boilers and water heaters at about 30 retirement homes throughout VA, MD, and DC. Almost all of them are running heaters with storage tanks at 110 degrees. No mixing valves.
    Never stop learning.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 802Member

    @Ironman I just took over service for the boilers and water heaters at about 30 Sunrise retirement homes throughout VA, MD, and DC. Almost all of them are running heaters with storage tanks at 110 degrees. No mixing valves.

    Better find the Code for that jurisdiction. If your the last one to touch them your responsible!

    That's WAY too low!
  • ZmanZman Posts: 4,975Member

    @Ironman I just took over service for the boilers and water heaters at about 30 Sunrise retirement homes throughout VA, MD, and DC. Almost all of them are running heaters with storage tanks at 110 degrees. No mixing valves.

    Get the water tested. It is not that expensive.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,625Member
    I think 110F is the code suggested temperature for retirement and child care facilities. But the tanks really should be elevated at the very least, ideally the entire system should be elevated above 140F , and mixed to that 110F.

    Attorneys are now specializing in legionella cases, down to the facility you may have contacted it at.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Erin Holohan HaskellErin Holohan Haskell Posts: 1,089Member, Moderator, Administrator
    Take a look at this article: http://www.prweb.com/releases/liquitech_and_spartan_bioscience_partner_to_bring_innovative_real_time_legionella_detection_to_health_care_sector/prweb16431923.htm

    "Spartan Bioscience, creator of the world’s first on-site Legionella DNA test, today announced a partnership with LiquiTech, a leader in Legionella prevention for the health care, commercial, and hospitality industries. Through this strategic partnership, LiquiTech will integrate Spartan’s innovative environmental DNA testing platform to provide a new approach to detecting Legionella contamination. With Spartan’s test, Liquitech can detect Legionella contamination in real-time and provide immediate remediation using their multi-barrier approach to dramatically improve patient and guest safety. This will provide unparalleled control of Legionnaires’ disease in health care and hospitality environments."
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Posts: 529Member
    I’m working on it. According to them their inspectors require 105 minimum and 120 maximum at the outlets of the faucets / showers. So they all set their storage tanks and supply to ~110.
    Never stop learning.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,625Member

    I’m working on it. According to them their inspectors require 105 minimum and 120 maximum at the outlets of the faucets / showers. So they all set their storage tanks and supply to ~110.

    really the only way to cover both bases is install point of use ASSE 1017 valves at every single faucet, set at 110, then run the tank up to 140F or higher.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Mike_SheppardMike_Sheppard Posts: 529Member
    edited August 8
    > @hot_rod said:
    > I’m working on it. According to them their inspectors require 105 minimum and 120 maximum at the outlets of the faucets / showers. So they all set their storage tanks and supply to ~110.
    >
    > really the only way to cover both bases is install point of use ASSE 1017 valves at every single faucet, set at 110, then run the tank up to 140F or higher.

    The several that keep their storage tanks 140 or above use a master mixing valve in the boiler room to send 110 out to the building. I know that’s not the right way to do it but that’s how everyone does it around here.

    You should have seen this one retirement home I ran a service call to. Different than the ones I’m talking about here. They used domestic hot water to heat the building. 4 inch copper pipes of domestic hot water leaving the boiler room at 120 degrees. Bronze floor mounted end suction pumps. Pipe to each room went to an air handler and their sinks / showers.
    Never stop learning.
  • SteamheadSteamhead Posts: 13,051Member

    You should have seen this one retirement home I ran a service call to. Different than the ones I’m talking about here. They used domestic hot water to heat the building. 4 inch copper pipes of domestic hot water leaving the boiler room at 120 degrees. Bronze floor mounted end suction pumps. Pipe to each room went to an air handler and their sinks / showers.

    That's a disaster and lawsuit waiting to happen.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    "Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
  • Steve MinnichSteve Minnich Posts: 2,462Member
    > @Steamhead said:
    > You should have seen this one retirement home I ran a service call to. Different than the ones I’m talking about here. They used domestic hot water to heat the building. 4 inch copper pipes of domestic hot water leaving the boiler room at 120 degrees. Bronze floor mounted end suction pumps. Pipe to each room went to an air handler and their sinks / showers.
    >
    > That's a disaster and lawsuit waiting to happen.

    WOW!
    Steve Minnich
    Tell me I can't, and I'll show you I can.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,625Member

    > @hot_rod said:

    > I’m working on it. According to them their inspectors require 105 minimum and 120 maximum at the outlets of the faucets / showers. So they all set their storage tanks and supply to ~110.

    >

    > really the only way to cover both bases is install point of use ASSE 1017 valves at every single faucet, set at 110, then run the tank up to 140F or higher.



    The several that keep their storage tanks 140 or above use a master mixing valve in the boiler room to send 110 out to the building. I know that’s not the right way to do it but that’s how everyone does it around here.



    You should have seen this one retirement home I ran a service call to. Different than the ones I’m talking about here. They used domestic hot water to heat the building. 4 inch copper pipes of domestic hot water leaving the boiler room at 120 degrees. Bronze floor mounted end suction pumps. Pipe to each room went to an air handler and their sinks / showers.

    That is still a common system, combined heating, cooling, DHW sold in large and small applications IPS integrated piping systems.

    I suppose it could be argued they are safer as all the HW piping is circulated all the time. Coil purge timers and valve assure even the small fluid capacity in the HX coils get flushed daily. Small potential for dead legs in un-used sections of the building.

    A plate DWHX would separate the building from the public supply for protection of the other water customers.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Posts: 2,629Member
    The several that keep their storage tanks 140 or above use a master mixing valve in the boiler room to send 110 out to the building. I know that’s not the right way to do it but that’s how everyone does it around here.


    That is what I did in my house, but I send 120F (not 110F) to the building. The reason I did that was that while I would have been delighted to send 140F to the dishwasher, and put a mixing valve at the other delivery points, all the pipes are buried in the concrete slab where my heating pipes are also buried. And everything else is in the walls (ceramic tile in the bathroom) and behind kitchen cabinets and stuff. So there are two that I could not put a mixing valve in, and several others, but those mixing valves are too expensive.

    The actual outlet temperature from my indirect hot water heater is in the range of 140F to almost 160F. I have a dial thermometer in the hot supply to my mixing valve, and another in the delivery line from the mixer to the house.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,625Member
    yes, 120F is what all the major plumbings codes show for residential use. 110F for at risk population.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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