DHW: Gas vs "Hybrid"

EBEBRATT-Ed

No, GE breaker will not fit that Cutler panel. You have the Cutler panel with the brown handles and the panel cover is brown. and the hooks that fit over the busbars. Your looking for Cutler Hammer Type "CH" breakers. Lowe's has some . You may have to search a little they are available. I have bought them within the last year. Eaton bought out CH

Intplm.

I like that heads up ^^^^ @EBEBRATT-Ed . I will be on the lookout for that in the future as I'm sure @ethicalpaul will

ethicalpaul

Intplm. said:

I like that heads up ^^^^ @EBEBRATT-Ed . I will be on the lookout for that in the future as I'm sure @ethicalpaul will

No, because I'm swapping it out

JUGHNE

The last I knew, CH would not take an other CB, also I do not believe they make a twin for that panel line.

Siemens and Square D "Homeline" will interchange, perhaps GE and Bryant/Westinghouse also.

But these substitutions are legal if the panel label lists them as approved. I have see most of these installed whenever they fit and no obvious problems unless subject to inspection.

Paul you could add a sub-feed panel to your existing panel, providing the main electric service is adequate for your house.
If really old then change the entire service. FWIW

ethicalpaul

Thank you, it’s getting ripped out with extreme prejudice. It’s just a little 125A

Intplm.

Yup. Have had to do that before. Stinks when you can't find the breakers to work with your current panel.
@ethicalpaul are you going to update to a 200 amp GE panel? I would. Especially if you are going to so much trouble changing the current one.

ethicalpaul

I would, but for two issues:
- I would probably have to replace the feeder to increase the service, too big a job for me
- and I am constrained in the vertical dimension because of the way my foundation is, and those 200A boxes are so tall

Jamie Hall

And you all think you have problems... Cedric's home has about 70 circuits, all told (200 amp service). All fuses... priced out converting to circuit breakers. Ah... not happening.

ethicalpaul

Here's a FB post I made about this panel some time ago: https://www.facebook.com/paul.bruneau/posts/10217722079909578

ethicalpaul

I thought you folks might find this interesting, but in NJ, PSEG is no longer sending a crew to pull meters (they used to, right?)

How it works today is, you get the permit, you call PSEG, they check the meter and the permit, give the OK to you, and then you pull your own meter (or your electrician does). Then you do the work, put the old meter back in service, pass the inspection, call PSEG, and they come in and replace your meter (because you might have tampered with it and because they like the new meters).

That is blowing my mind!

JUGHNE

The only thing that could go wrong is if one of the insulator jaws on the top line side breaks as the meter is pulled. That just about never happens.....exciting if it does.

Where is your main service disconnect for the house.....single switch or set of fuses?

ethicalpaul

There's a single main switch in my old 125A Cutler-Hammer panel so I should be able to completely remove the load from the meter before pulling it, is that why you ask?

JUGHNE

I didn't see the main in your pictures.

ethicalpaul

True. It's not at the top, it's lower out of the view of those pics. Now that I look again at those pics, it reminds me, there is a sort-of main switch on the top half with the other 240 breakers--that shuts off the supply all the 120 breakers. So I guess there are a few switches to switch off (the 240 ones)

JUGHNE

That is called a split buss panel.
Code requires no more than 6 switches to disconnect the building.
Your main is probably 60 amp leaving 5 double poles for appliances.
The only reasoning for this I could think of was that breakers larger than 60 amp were very expensive and this was a way to avoid that cost.
Often these were rated for 125 amp for the entire panel.
That breaker size would be 2-3 times the cost of the 60.

ethicalpaul

That looks exactly right. Mine’s 125. Thanks for the info. I can’t wait to junk this thing

ethicalpaul

OK I did it! Pulled the meter, did the work, pushed the meter, didn't die. Now I just have to pass inspection (there is one more 240v breaker to add for the garage).

This is still on-topic because this new panel will allow me to install the hybrid water heater (still not sure that's the direction I'm going)

Before:


After:

Intplm.

@ethicalpaul . Not bad. Not bad at all. Is this your first panel change?

I have changed a few. Mostly with the help of a electrician friend from the weather head in.
Looks like you have some wires to the left that need some attention?

Yours looks pretty good. Brave. Not a easy undertaking.
Hope the inspector approves.

Larry Weingarten

Hello, Looking good! Might a little no ox on the aluminum wire connections be nice?

Yours, Larry

Steamhead

Intplm. said:

Stinks when you can't find the breakers to work with your current panel.

In the case of Federal Pacific, that would be a GOOD thing!

ethicalpaul

Thanks all! Yes it is my first one, but I watched a lot of youtube

Yes I think I need no ox. I didn't know about it, it's one of the areas of my ignorance, thank you.

The two wires on the left are to a 20A 240 circuit that goes to the garage. I didn't have a breaker for that one, but I bought it yesterday and installed it, so those are sewn up, good eye!

One area of concern I do have is that the installer of the old one cut some ground wires short and tied them into the grommet things at the top of the panel. Some of these I was able to route into the side and the ground was long enough to put on the ground bus, but 3 of them were too short, so I left them on the grommets. The inspector might make me splice those, but that's not too bad.

Robert_25

Make sure you are look at the total cost rather than just energy cost. If the hybrid unit costs 2X what a high output NG 50 gallon unit does, it is unlikely to recover that difference in energy savings. Crunch the numbers with your local costs for NG and electricity and see how it looks over a 10 year period.

I recently went through a similar evaluation, and ended up buying an electric (resistance) water heater. The hybrid option was tempting, but the reliability was a concern, and the energy savings was not enough to break even in a reasonable time period. Like you, I was also thinking a cool & dry basement would be great for the summer - but after talking to someone with a GE Geospring, I realized that you have to use a fair amount of hot water to get that effect. For a household of 2 with energy saving appliances, I don't think you would use enough hot water to benefit much from the AC effect of the hybrid.

george_42

plumber for over 50 years says, Put in atmospheric 50 gal ng heater with temp mixing vale on output and set heater to very high temp . then reduce output temp with mixing valve to desired temp. This will also eliminate legionnaires disease and effectively give you about 80 gal of usable water on first draw. This is how plumbing code says to do it and is most cost effective. I do this in my own home, never run out

ethicalpaul

Robert I’m sure you are right, that effect although desirable may not be large enough to notice. And since I’m comparing to NG, I’m pretty sure there won’t be a payoff. Did you happen to get the rheem marathon electric? I got one of those for my last house and I loved it—plastic body, no rust ever.

George, I hear you and I may go this way still. I would like to reduce the number of burners in the house, but the tried and true is appealing. Thanks to you both.

Intplm.

Some inspectors do not allow for a splice inside a breaker panel. Your situation might be all set from what I can see. The inspection should go smoothly.

Robert_25

> @ethicalpaul said:
> Yeah, it’s now Eaton, but my panel uses these ones with a cutout in the back that I can’t find. And trust me, it needs to be swapped out

I know you have already swapped the panel, but for anyone else that is in the same situation...those old CH panels have a "rejection bar" that prevents current CH breakers from being used. When the panel was made thre idea was to prevent breakers from other companies from being used. I have the same panel in our guest cottage, and thanks to a helpful parts guy at the local supply house I figured out that the rejection bar can be removed and modern CH breakers will work fine. The silver bar over the bus is what needs to come out, and a good set of locking pliers will remove the two safety screws.

ethicalpaul

Yes @Robert_25 that was exactly my situation!

But even with that information I still would have swapped it out because a couple of the breakers were sort of "welded" in place, also I wanted more circuits like a modern square D panel offers with tandem possible on every space.

To close the loop, the inspector said to me on the phone "which contractor did the work?" and when I told him it was me, he said "where'd you learn to do that?" I just told him "I've been around" haha

He came when I wasn't home but my wife let him in (which was fine, although I wanted to be there to discuss any findings) and he took a look, told her it looked good and put the sticker on it

Intplm.

Nice that the inspection was a success.
Good job.

ethicalpaul

Hey gang-- I've been putting off this decision all this time, but then HD put the entire Rheem Performance Platinum line on sale so I got the 65 gallon. I'll let you know how it goes.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-65-gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Smart-Tank-Electric-Water-Heater-XE65T10HD50U1/303419586

Larry Weingarten

Hi, @ethicalpaul Here's a link to dsireusa.org with a guess at your zip code. There might be some programs here to help you:
https://programs.dsireusa.org/system/program?zipcode=70090

Yours, Larry

ethicalpaul

Thank you so much @Larry Weingarten. You are right, there is a $750 rebate for a heat pump water heater in my area via PSEG (and I'm sure the state or some other entity).

I have to have a licensed HVAC person do the install but maybe I can find someone to supervise my work.

Intplm.

Hey @ethicalpaul
You can supervise your own work by doing it yourself.
From what I have seen, you would be fine installing this water heater on your own.

ethicalpaul

Thanks! I agree, but to get the cash incentive ($750!) it has to be installed by a licensed tech

SeanBeans

@ethicalpaul i might know a guy who knows a guy.. I hold a license in NJ but it is currently inactive for a few years since I’ve lived there

Or maybe someone on this site would be able to help you out.

Jolly Bodger

Paul, and idea for you. Install a new gas heater (high efficiency, and high recovery if the pocket book hold up) than install a Sanden CO2. Set the Sanden 10 degrees higher than the gas. For standby loss and low usage the HP will take the load and when the tub gets filled the gas will come on and recover faster.

ethicalpaul

Thanks Jolly, but the heat pump trigger has been pulled 😀

Jolly Bodger

Let us know how it works. Sharing your experience can help others try new technology.

ethicalpaul

Absolutely. Some would say I share too much

Intplm.

ethicalpaul said:

Thanks! I agree, but to get the cash incentive ($750!) it has to be installed by a licensed tech

Ok....Well I'm certain you will like the new water heater. You always do your homework. And you should still come out ahead with the cost incentive offered. Even if you need to pay an installer👍🏼.

Icarus

Coming late to the party, but what about if you use the HPWH for “normal” DHW, but feed it through a thermostatically controlled Rinnai (or eq) demand gas to bump up the water temp as needed. You could plumb it specifically for the tub, or for the whole house. The Rinnai will only fire as much as needed or not at all if the incoming water is warm enough, at a pretty good GPM flow rate.

Icarus