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Dead circulator tonight, need info, Manchester NH

LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
edited February 10 in THE MAIN WALL
Saturaday 8pm Manchester NH
About an hour ago my home circulator starts short cycling. Looks like cycling on internal thermal protector.
I don't have spare parts.

Motor has power.
Looks like motor is free enough but pump is dragging, feels like tight bushing
Guessing motor doesn't get to full operating speed and is drawing more amps and trips motor internal thermal protector.

1) Was thinking of loading pump bearing oiller with penetrating oil for tonight, any other ideas?
I oiled it 3 weeks ago 10-30 oil

2) Home Depot is open and has those TACO circulators, anyone know what # would have same flow curve as mine.
Taco's are shorter flange to flange, pain to change pipe length

3) Anyone around here have a pump head maybe a motor too.

Pump head is Bell and Gossett 189134 replaced in 17 years ago
Pump motor is Bell and Gossett 1/12hp # MRF58JV




Comments

  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Posts: 10,179Member
    You can try the oil, but could also be a bad capacitor... that pump doesn't owe you anything at this point.
    Jamie



    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.



    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    No cap on that one.
    Problem is need heat, house is 1 zone system, 13 degs tonight.
  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 11,229Member
    variable speed?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 10
    Constant rpm
    I did think of something like that. Hose and hose clamps. Since pump was 1/12 hp was thinking 1/4 hp. Good old duct tape :) :/

    How hard do you think it will be to get a circultor head from supply house on Monday? 60 year old design. Only need impeller and seal section. Don't need motor or mating casting with the flanges.

    Pulled the oiler cap assembly over shaft seal, held in by 4 metal fingers. Found water in there, that's likely rusting and binding things up. For tonight I'll try vacuuming water out and more penetrating oil.

    Motor had cooled down while I ate, tried it and still cycles off in ~ 20 seconds. Having nothing really to lose I oiled it with PB Baster penetrating oil and let it cycle . Baseboards are hot. Might limp along till Monday when supply house is open.
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 10
    Pushed up room thermostat to 80 so power to circulator would not shut off. Been upstairs for a while now.

    Finally dawned on me burner has been running almost continuously for a while. Made me wonder where's oil's energy is going if circulator is hardly running. Went to look, seems penetrating oil worked, circulator is not cycling. Hopefully will limp along it till Supply houses open on monday.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Posts: 5,510Member
    @hot_rod

    Isn't that quite a trick
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 10
    Luck!!! Did lot of work on cars.
    Keeping my fingers crossed, but feel lot more confident of Monday now.

    Didn't want to open seal assembly, can of worms, on cars always find you need parts or things break. Plus no isolation ball valves on furnace.......yet.
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 1,974Member
    If the circ has the same flange height as the 100 (guys?) a Taco 007 or Grundfos will slide right in.
    Theres a lot going on there to just drop the pressure to a slight vac and do it on the fly so you're going to have to drain the system.
    The bolts need the sawzall and the flange gaskets most likely need to be chipped off. A strong flat head screwdriver and I like a narrow spackle knife. Tap tap. Put a rag in the opening. A wire brush and grit cloth to clean the surface area.
    Normally I would say the gaskets provided with the circ would be ok but I'd pick up some red rubber circ gaskets.
    If your not gonna do isolation valves now (return pipe is tight to the ceiling joists huh?) , pick them up now anyway so you can use the nuts and bolts provided.

    Back in the day they made block spacers to use when the circ that had a taller flange height than a 007 or a 100 BnG could be replaced without repiping. They were a God send at 3:00 a.m.
  • mikeg2015mikeg2015 Posts: 702Member
    edited February 10
    007 or the universal 3 speed 15/58 should slide right in. Supply house or even Menards will have those. Is that a union just below it? IF so, could just get a different length pipe nippe and new set of threaded flanges.
  • MikeL_2MikeL_2 Posts: 177Member
    edited February 10
    You may be able to manually open the flowcheck & thermal siphon will provide temporary heat........
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    I would definitely recommend upgrading to a modern wet rotor circulator, unless you enjoy oiling and replacing couplings on the old three piece circulators. You could use this as an opportunity to upgrade to a high efficiency ECM circulator like the Grundfos Alpha or the Taco Viridian.
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Posts: 2,780Member
    If only there were people you could call...who come to your house and fix things on your boiler...
    steve
  • Jon_blaneyJon_blaney Posts: 48Member
    Had a similar problem with a pump on my son's boiler. It was a converted gravity system. Had him disconnect the pump electrical until I could get a new pump. House stayed warm without running the pump. His system had radiators.
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 12
    So far so good. Had heat all night and right now.

    "manually open flowcheck & thermal siphon will provide temporary heat".
    Good idea!! Think it's up high, I'll look

    Pipe flanges do look edge crumbly rust, but structural enough for now. ( Have car torches, can go to white hot). Suspect flanges on pump casting will be rusted too. COLD out now so maybe I'll just leave that can of worms for warmer weather and just replace immediate problem , middle assembly ( shaft seals and impeller section).

    Heard red flange gaskets don't last, I'm thinking of making some from sheet of viton rubber. Any ideas on better gasket material.

    I would definitely recommend upgrading to a modern wet rotor circulator,
    If this is the TACO types? , I've heard since TACOs are sealed and can't be oiled, the replaceable motor cartridge seizes and needs to be replaced more often. Is this true?

    I do keep some spares: new filters, nossels, electrodes.... and old parts to cannibalize.
  • FranklinDFranklinD Posts: 389Member
    I just went through this very thing myself Thursday night, after a looong day at work and 4 hours of snowblowing after (got 18” of snow that day)...then the temp dropped to -8°f that night. Circ pump died on me and I realized it that night at 10pm or so. Tried my backup 007 but it was seized after years of sitting on the shelf (rust in the bearings). Fortunately the boiler circulated by gravity all night, I just set the high limit to 190 instead of my usual 165 (I have big cast iron rads, dunno if that works for baseboard). Bought a little 15-58 Grundfos Friday after work and it works great. As for lifespan, I know many people around here (my mothers house included) that have wet-rotor circulators that are easily 15-20 years old. They do last a long time when properly installed. Best of luck to you, it’s been a chilly winter here as well (NW WI, the arrowhead of Lake Superior).
    Ford Master Technician, "Tinkerer of Terror"
    Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
    Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    The wet rotor circulator are like the Taco ones that you are probably thinking of. They last a long time, I've seen ones that have been in service for over twenty years. They are easy to work on, four Allen head screws are all that's needed to remove to replace the motor. If you have isolation valves on the pump a motor replacement can be done in a few minutes
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 1,974Member
    There's still 007's out there that have the ribs on the motor for heat dissipation. That's gotta be at least 20 years.
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 11
    Checked pump, drag now seems normal. About 50 -75% less than it was. Looks like penetrating oil did it's job. I'll relube regular oil for now. Buy parts now and install when weather is milder outside in a few weeks ( not 10 degs and NEED heat)

    No water leaks noticeable so guessing flange leak dripped and leaked into oiler chamber. Weep hole now drains.

    Found anti-siphon, pic attached , 61 years old. Manual open seems frozen. Put penetrating oil on it, I'll wait till summer to force that one.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 645Member
    Leonard said:

    Checked pump, drag now seems normal. About 50 -75% less than it was. Looks like penetrating oil did it's job. I'll relube regular oil for now. Buy parts now and install when weather is milder outside in a few weeks ( not 10 degs and NEED heat)

    No water leaks noticeable so guessing flange leak dripped and leaked into oiler chamber. Weep hole now drains.

    Found anti-siphon, pic attached , 61 years old. Manual open seems frozen. Put penetrating oil on it, I'll wait till summer to force that one.

    What parts did you buy?
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 11
    Nothing yet, now I'm pretty confident pump will make it to summer, so learning first. I'm leaning to just replacing with same. WHY are wet rotor types better?

    I'll read about about different pumps first. Want to make sure I'm not putting in an undersized pump. Guessing doesn't make a difference but I have monoflow tees, 1 foot tall CI baseboards along walls.

    Sounds like old pump has same life span as new wet rotor types.
    Old pump lasted 17 years and I think early failure came from flange leak weeping into it (17 year RED flange gaskets, dried up and cracked).
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 645Member
    Lets see.
    That pump draws what 2 - 3 amps. A 007 .6, the Varidian max .3

  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    edited February 11
    I have the same thing, diverter tee and cast iron baseboards. The Alpha and Viridian circulators work great, no oiling and replacing couplings required. No problems at all.

    The energy consumption mentioned above is the reason why PSC motor pumps are going the way of the dodo. I'm not 100 percent sure this will be a good thing, since PSC circulators are more forgiving of operation in a contaminated system.
  • Dave H_2Dave H_2 Posts: 321Member
    Wet rotor circs are different and yet the same.

    The BnG 100 has a curve of about 8 foot of head and out to 35 gallons per minute.

    The 007 has a curve of about 10 foot of head and out to 23 gallons per minute.

    95% of the time, the 007 replaces the BnG 100 performance-wise in residential settings.

    A 007 will use a lot less power, uses the water in the system to lubricate and cool the motor (hence wet rotor) whereas the 100 needs to be oiled for the bearings and uses air to cool the motor.

    The 007 also runs at twice the speed, 3450 rpm whereas the 100 was 1725 rpm.

    So in essence, they are the same thing, only different! Just a changing of the guard.

    Dave H.

    Dave H
  • ch4manch4man Posts: 133Member
    edited February 12
    since you have diverter tee's, given the choice i'd lean more towards a stronger circ to keep the velocity up. mono flow systems work on the principle of a restriction to steer the water to the rad. velocity and restriction to flow are proportional.

    is that old b&G a series 100 or a HV model?
    edit, i see it is a 1/12hp series 100,,,,,,,,
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 12
    Felt pump motor just now, NOTICEABLY !!! cooler than before penetrating oil.

    I'm not up to speed on pump size numbers yet ,maybe you can point me to a link that shows physical dimensions, (& pump curves) and I can figure it out.

    Current pump midsection is labeled Bell and Gossett Booster #189134
    Current pump motor is Bell & Gossett 1/12 hp # MRF58JV
    I'm pretty happy with distribution of heat in the house, and the QUIET 1800 rpm motors.

    Picture is PREVIOUS pump midsection current one replaced 17 years ago. No numbers on it.
    Heard impeller size determines flow curve.
    Old pump's impeller large OD is 2.712"
    impeller's intake "hole" at top is 1.408" ID.
    Impeller slot openings at large OD are .365" tall (between the metals)

    From color of cover in pic looks like currently running pump is only 2nd replacement in 61 year old furnace. So looks ~ 20 years/pump.....maybe.

  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    As far as noise is concerned I'm sure most will attest to the fact that 3450 RPM wet rotor circulators are virtually silent during operation.
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 13
    Figured pump might be quiet, just saw a few 3600 rpm oil burners that were LOUD.

    1 year ago I put hour meters on burner and circulator. In 365 days circulator ran 600 hours (burner 1155). My circulator says 1.7 amps. assuming that's all running watts it's 204 watts max. At 17.5 cents/KWH thats only $21.42/year. So I'm not too concerned with power usage.
  • pecmsgpecmsg Posts: 645Member
    That must be one oversized system or a extremely mild winter
  • SuperTechSuperTech Posts: 938Member
    Yeah it's been determined that a circulator pump doesn't cost much to operate, if you only have one typical residential circulator an ECM pump isn't going to give you much return on investment.

    Any oil burner can be loud, or quiet. It's amazing how much of a difference it makes when you enclose the burner in a box and draw combustion air from outdoors.
  • LeonardLeonard Posts: 789Member
    edited February 12
    It's oversized, and had a mild winter somewhere in past. Boiler sized to also heat 2nd floor that was never finished. 1 zone, small 1.1 GPH nossel (1.6 boiler max), tankless DHW coil. 1-st floor insualtion: ceiling 10", walls 2 ", floor 0". Uninsulated cellar heated by losses off pipes and maybe from it's ceiling.

    Sounds like monoflow requirements, and robust operating with debris trumps power cost.

    I'm green, Curious HOW you knew it's oversized?
  • STEVEusaPASTEVEusaPA Posts: 2,780Member
    Leonard said:

    Figured pump might be quiet, just saw a few 3600 rpm oil burners that were LOUD.

    3450
    steve
  • HVACNUTHVACNUT Posts: 1,974Member
    > @STEVEusaPA said:
    > Figured pump might be quiet, just saw a few 3600 rpm oil burners that were LOUD.
    >
    >
    > 3450

    220, 221. Whatever it takes.
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