Steam boiler losing water

T_4

I have a single pipe steam system.
Everything had been working fine, no water loss.
Then a horizontal pipe about 6" x 1-1/4" adjacent to the boiler developed a pin hole leak.
I couldn't get my regular guy to replace, he was too busy.
I taped it with electrical tape. That worked. Boiler was not loosing any water.
Since I was going away for 2 weeks, I didn't want to risk it.
So I had another guy who I didn't know replace it.
He just drained the boiler from the low water shutoff.
He replaced the small piece of pipe. It took him about 15 minutes, he charged me $ ( his explanation travel time).
He was only alone for 2 minutes, while I ran upstairs to raise the thermostsat.
The pipe does NOT leak, but the boiler water level now mysteriously goes down.
This was NOT happening before even with the pipe taped.
Now I need to add water every 3 days or so.
I have checked everywhere and do NOT see any leaking water.
It just seems like an incredible coincidence that this problem developed immediately after the repair.
Any ideas?

JUGHNE

Is there any other drain valves he might have tried to use?
Perhaps one with a hose connected dripping into the floor drain.

He may have tried to drain thru that and it was plugged and now shutting off completely.

Pictures are always good.

KC_Jones

First the boiler looks ancient, so if it is now leaking I really wouldn't be surprised.

Second, coincidence happens and that is possibly what you have here. That being said, do you have any underground returns? From what I see in the picture I am guessing no.

A test you can do to see if the boiler is leaking is to shut it down let it cool for a while, then overfill to the top and see if water comes out under the boiler. If it does the boiler has a hole in it. If you get nothing, then it's time to start looking harder.

If you do get a replacement, get a steam pro in, the person who installed that thing clearly is not.

T_4

Thanks.
My regular guy told me to look for chimney smoke.
I did not see any smoke.
Would filling the boiler to look for a crack, likely damage the boiler further if there is a small crack?
I'm thinking I can make thru the winter adding every 3 days.
Is draining the return line worth a shot?

T_4

Also no underground returns.

KC_Jones

Filling it wouldn't make things any worse, but the sooner you know, the sooner you can plan your next move. I would want to know ASAP so I can start figuring the budget if needed.

We don't discuss price, but it isn't what I would call cheap.

T_4

Is draining the return line worth a shot?

Jamie Hall

T_4 said:

Is draining the return line worth a shot?

Not really -- after all, you are looking for a leak, not a slowdown or block. However, it is worth looking at all the fittings that might have been disturbed during the work to see if you can see any sign of a leak. Particularly on pipes that are hot, it can be hard to see.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Love the low water cut off that they turned around the corner with a 90. That is a big no no but not contributing to the problem.

Long Hartford loop nipple. Wonder if it hammers?

T_4

Jamie Hall said:

T_4 said:

Is draining the return line worth a shot?

Not really -- after all, you are looking for a leak, not a slowdown or block. However, it is worth looking at all the fittings that might have been disturbed during the work to see if you can see any sign of a leak. Particularly on pipes that are hot, it can be hard to see.

Thanks that makes the most sense.
However I don't see any water on the floor and haven't noticed
any hissing around the fittings.
The water has to be going somewhere, I'll keep looking.

Jamie Hall

That's the problem with small leaks. They won't make a puddle, generally -- and unless the pressure is really high -- they won't hiss or do anything helpful like that. Consider: if you are losing less than a gallon a day, that's less than a cup of water per hour. Boil a cup of water in the kitchen -- if it's a slow boil, you won't see any steam, you won't hear it usually... Dang things are hard to find.

T_4

OK, then how do I find it?

SeanBeans

@T_4
If you have a friend with a FLIR gun, that may help

retiredguy

What is the operating steam pressure? Has it been changed recently? This is noy really part of an answer but I would have a boiler guy move the low water cut-off and gauge glass to a better place. (that piping could easily plug up)

JUGHNE

Did you flood the boiler above the water line...when cool?
Overfill up to the piping only. Let sit for an hour or so.

Can you see all of your piping in the basement, anything buried?

Jamie Hall

T_4 said:

OK, then how do I find it?

Danged if I know. But you might get lucky wrapping a piece of tissue paper around the various joints and valves -- that sometimes will get damp, but not hot enough to dry out. Sometimes...

T_4

Any possibility the water loss could be due to a partially clogged return line. Perhaps when the boiler was drained for the repair,
the drain got partially clogged.

Fred

T_4 said:

Any possibility the water loss could be due to a partially clogged return line. Perhaps when the boiler was drained for the repair,
the drain got partially clogged.

If the return was clogged or slow, water would either slowly return to the boiler, between heating cycles and the boiler would be over filled with the water you are adding or, if fully clogged, it would back up into the main and cause a lot of hammer. You'd know the return was the problem.

As much as you may not want to hear it, do as others have suggested. Let the boiler cool down and over fill it up to the riser,
over the top of the boiler and see if water runs out onto the floor. If it does, you have a hole in the top of the boiler block and the boiler needs to be replaced. If no water runs out, start looking for smaller leaks at fittings, valve and vents. You can take a small mirror and hold it close to fittings, valves and vents while the boiler runs. If you see condensation on the mirror at any one of those locations, mark it a one that has a leak and move on to the next until you have checked them all.

T_4

Thanks appreciate the suggestion.
However given that it's 15 outside, I'm reluctant to try overfilling
the boiler at this point.
I did find a small leak between the sections on a radiator in a remote room. I doubt this is the problem, but I'll try shutting this radiator off.

Jamie Hall

I'll bet that "small" leak is the problem, or at least a good bit of it. You'd be surprised how much water a small leak can dump over time.

JUGHNE

The rad valve may not close 100% and steam may still seep inside. If so then condensate will build up in the rad.
If this happens, you could open the valve to drain as needed and reclose.

T_4

That did not fix the problem, still losing water.
That radiator is now ice cold, so I assume condensate is NOT
building up in it.

Fred

There is likely a hole in the top of the boiler block. Do you see any steam coming out of the chimney when the boiler is running? I think the only way you are going to find where the water is going will be to over fill the boiler. I think you will see water spill onto the floor.

T_4

Now that it's warmer, I got around to overfilling the boiler.
Water coming out the bottom on the right side.
As mentioned previously, problem started after plumber replaced the small piece of pipe pin hole leak. Coud it be
pipe connection to boiler now leaking. Can i remove covers
to see where leaking?

Jamie Hall

Indeed you can. The covers are usually pretty simple to remove, once you figure out what's holding them on.

And it could well be that the connection is leaking. It shouldn't...

ethicalpaul

As soon as I touched my boiler piping, 1 pipe started leaking from a rotted place dammed up with rust, and I found 2 more pipes with paper thin walls. Hopefully you can fix it by fixing a joint, or replacing a couple pipes like I was able to.

Jamie Hall

Don't be shy about replacing pipe. First place, I've never known a leak to get smaller with time. Second place, if there is one, there are likely to be others just waiting for a cold dark night.

T_4

Still not sure how to remove covers on this old bryan boiler.
Just called my plumber guy. He said the only test he does
is the overfill. iF it leaks the he replaces the boiler.
Should I call some one else. I think it's worth looking under the covers to see where it is leaking?

T_4

Also can anyone help withthe covers, photo of boiler has been posted. Does the top just pop off?

nicholas bonham-carter

I don’t see the picture, but do the overfill test before dismantling the covers.—NBC

T_4

I already did the overfill test and it leaks.Photo was poste jan 11 and is visible in this thread/

Steamhead

Time for a new boiler.

Jamie Hall

T_4 said:

I already did the overfill test and it leaks.Photo was poste jan 11 and is visible in this thread/

If it leaks, it leaks. Time to replace it. Don't bother to go any further.

SeanBeans

oh man I hope when he replaces that boiler he hires someone competent.

T_4

Isn't it possible that the boiler is not cracked.
But rather pipes connecting to the boiler are leaking at the connection.
The only way to tell would be by removing the covers, correct?

Tinman

The panels are just held on by a handful of sheet metal screws. Start removing screws near the leak and the panel will probably remove itself after a bit.

Fred

T_4 said:

Isn't it possible that the boiler is not cracked.
But rather pipes connecting to the boiler are leaking at the connection.
The only way to tell would be by removing the covers, correct?

The only pipes above the water line are the risers to the steam main. If you had to raise the water level above the pipes that are already below the water line, to see water run onto the floor but your raised water level was still below the riser(s) to the mains, the leak is in the boiler block. If the raised water level was up into the risers, it is possible the leak is in a riser pipe but that is really wishful thinking. Doesn't hurt to remove a panel or two though.

T_4

Filling to the top of the site glass does not leak.
How else can I tell the water level?

Fred

If you continue to fill, past the top of the sight glass, when water gets to the risers, you can feel the temp change.

retiredguy

Some cast iron boiler sections will only leak when heated to a certain temperature and will not leak even when tested to 100 psi when cold. Some threads and fittings may leak the same way. At one time, you could repair boiler section cracks with "iodine and lead wool" until they quit selling concentrated iodine.

T_4

no sheet metal screws visible.
no idea how to remove panels.
have attached 2 photos.