Brewery Steam boiler

sraburne

I am working on a brewery low pressure steam boiler. I am getting the hang of the operation pressure of 8 psi
My question is when boiler is shut down electrically, after using it. The boiler pressure goes into a vacuum and over fills the vessel. It is pulling water from the condensate tank. Their is no air vent, any where in this systems. Should their be a air vent to prevent the water from over filling the boiler

Steamhead

Install a vacuum breaker somewhere on the boiler above the waterline. The low-water cutoff piping might be a good place.

Dave0176

sraburne said:

I am working on a brewery low pressure steam boiler. I am getting the hang of the operation pressure of 8 psi
My question is when boiler is shut down electrically, after using it. The boiler pressure goes into a vacuum and over fills the vessel. It is pulling water from the condensate tank. Their is no air vent, any where in this systems. Should their be a air vent to prevent the water from over filling the boiler

I put a vacuum breaker on all steam jackets.

jumper

I'd try no vents or vacuum breakers. Manually evacuate air and then let gravity and level controls do their jobs.

Are you certain that you require such high pressure?

EBEBRATT-Ed

You need a vacuum breaker. The change in volume from water to steam and back is 1700 times. I prefer using a Y pattern check valve. Locate it high above the boiler water line. In addition if you have control valves at equipment locations I would put VBs after the control valves to allow the condensate to drain easily. Vacum in the system will hold back the condensate

Mike_Sheppard

Do what they said above - vacuum breaker on the boiler above the water line, as well vacuum breaker after any control valves if there are any.

Also, pick up one of these @RayWohlfarth books. I learned a lot from it and was able to better serve my brewery customers.

https://heatinghelp.com/store/detail/lessons-learned-brewing-with-steam-things-to-know-when-designing-installing-and-maintaining-low-pressure-steam-boilers-for-use-in-craft-brewers-volume-4

RayWohlfarth

Thanks @Mike_Sheppard for the shoutout.
@sraburne You are brewing with 8 Psig? Wow I am impressed Most brewers try to get as close to 15 Psias possible.
I would defintely use a vacuum breaker as a vacuum can do unbelievabe damage. Check out this videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz95_VvTxZM

EBEBRATT-Ed

That's something to see!!!

I bet it sounded like a bomb going off

sraburne

Thank you all for the information.
Jumper, I did try equalizing the system manually, but still have the vacuum problem , i figured the T&P traps are causing the vacuum in the boiler.
I am going to install vacuum breaker above the water line at the boiler.
Ray wohlfarth , I have your book on order, thank you.
I am running the system at 8 psi, it seams to be work good.
The riser off my kettle blanket trap, to the return header is about 8'
I would like to lower the pressure setting more, but my brewer dude is getting nervous.
awesome video, I saw one like it on myth busters
Thanks again all

Mike_Sheppard

When it comes to brewing, temperature is what is important. The higher the pressure, the higher the temperature. The higher the temperature, the faster they can brew. Faster brew = faster profit.

I have a few brewers who run high pressure steam boilers for brewing. They brew faster, but the downside to that is they have to have a licensed engineer to operate the boiler. One of the brewers I know actually managed to get his engineer license and can operate his own boiler.

For the brewers who don’t want to deal with the added costs of a high pressure boiler, they go with low pressure steam, and run it as close to 15 psi as they can. I would actually be turning the pressure up in this case. 10-11 psi is usually a good spot.

EBEBRATT-Ed

If you push a low pressure boiler up to the 12psi range you probably ok. Over that and the safety valve is likely to weep.

I had one last year that was frozen shut. Dangerous. Probably from the valve constantly weeping and the owner ignoring it.

Stay with the 8 psi if it works

Dave0176

I have the boiler cutout set to 12 psi and cut in set at 8. The pressure recommendations was from DME the manufacturer of the boil kettle.

sraburne

These Brewer system are definitely different creature than a heating system.
Once I install the vacuum breaker and see how the system functions at 8 PSI, I may increase the pressures some
Mike Sheppard words to live by, if you don't mind me quoting you Mike
The higher the pressure, the higher the temperature. The higher the temperature, the faster they can brew. Faster brew = faster profit.
I was told this steam boiler i am working on was replaced a couple of years age. The original Boiler blow up for reasons i don't know. But with the vacuum issues i am having. the boiler may have imploded

jumper

Looks like a railcar? A twenty inch diameter "lightwall" tank does not crumple even when it's dimpled. For me the question is do you prefer gravity to move liquid or atmospheric air? Another question is why does the boiler cool faster than kettle jackets?

RayWohlfarth said:

Thanks @Mike_Sheppard for the shoutout.
@sraburne You are brewing with 8 Psig? Wow I am impressed Most brewers try to get as close to 15 Psias possible.
I would defintely use a vacuum breaker as a vacuum can do unbelievabe damage. Check out this videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zz95_VvTxZM

sraburne

Well Jumper That’s a good question !
Why is the boiler cool faster than kettle jackets? I was thinking my vacuum issues are the steam T & P traps are not cooling and opening fast enough to equalize my system

boilerbub

Another way to prevent the siphon out of the boiler is to attach the pipe coming from the condensate tank to the boiler on an external piping arrangement called a Hartford Loop (easily found via web search); the external arrangement connects the bottom of the boiler with the steam outlet piping. The condensate piping attachment point should be at the boiler waterline. It was originally devised for single pipe systems used in older buildings, but it may help in your situation.

dopey27177

Check your condensate feed water tank for a vent to the atmosphere. Generally the receiver should have an overflow and vent from the same tank tapping. The vent will prevent a vacuum from forming in both the boiler, return and steam piping

Jake

Mike_Sheppard

@dopey27177 that would work if the system didn’t have control valves at the kettles. The steam piping gets closed off to the return piping.

I have dealt with this issue a lot with brewers and sterilization companies that use autoclaves with control valves. The boiler needs a vacuum breaker. And the kettles need vacuum breakers.

B_Sloane

no pigtails on the Pressuretrols ..??

pecmsg

B_Sloane said:

no pigtails on the Pressuretrols ..??

No pig tails needed with that setup.

B_Sloane

I see that it drops, but the Pressuretrol instructions "require" a pigtail

pecmsg

B_Sloane said:

I see that it drops, but the Pressuretrol instructions "require" a pigtail

All a pig tail does is give it a water seal, that set up does the same......a water seal.

B_Sloane

thanks for playing along !
I wanted to get that point across in the instance that a casual viewer might think it is ok to not use a syphon pigtail on pressuretrols