A couple questions about my vapor system

_Laughter_

Hello everyone.

Im a home owner of a 1920 built house with steam heat. Almost all of my radiators have O-E style elbows on the returns. Steam valves on the radiators are a mixed bag of styles. I am trying to figure out how to get more balanced heating.

All of the rads with O-E elbows on the returns are constantly hot. My living room and dining room rads have 17c traps and do not fully heat up. Do these just need to be rebuilt?

Also, the only vent in the system is on the dry return at the boiler. It is always open. Can anyone identify the type of vent this is? (See attached pic)

I am including some pics of the near boiler piping as well.

Thanks so much

John

Fred

I don't know what that vent is. How old is the boiler? It is really piped incorrectly. It has no header and no equalizer. Any water droplets carried by the steam has no way to drop out and fall back into an equalizer. Boiler looks relatively new. It may make sense to have it properly piped, especially if you are getting any hammer.


A vapor system really should also have a Vaporstat on it as you want the pressure to always be around 8 to 12 ounces max. That Pressuretrol simply won't do that.

JUGHNE

Is it possible that vent was piped into the chimney in the past?
I would replace it with a B&J Big Mouth vent.
Your old vent has passed steam sometime in the past by the looks of the wood above it.
The B&J may not see steam but if traps fail some may make it back to your dry return.

Steamhead

The O-E system did not use a chimney vent, according to "The Lost Art of Steam Heating". It used a high-capacity main vent on the dry return.

I would not use a Big Mouth on a dry return like this. Remember, this is a "B" dimension rather than an "A" Dimension, so it's much easier for water to back up into the vent. The Big Mouth does not have a float that will close against water. Use a Gorton #2 instead, since it does.

Jamie Hall

It really doesn't matter whether the vent is into a chimney or through one or two Gorton's -- either will do; the chimney did pull a slight vacuum which was taken as beneficial.

What does matter is that the O-E system (and others like it) was an is insanely sensitive to excess pressure. I would ggest making sure the pressure never rises above a few ounces.

As to the radiators with traps which don't heat all the way across -- this may be normal, or it may be that steam is blowing through the O-E elbows and pressurizing the return enough to stop steam flow to those radiators before it should. Hard to judge.

_Laughter_

Thank you for all of your feedback.

Jim_R: the diagram you posted is pretty much exactly how my system is piped.

JUGHNE: The return does pass steam on longer cycles.

So as far as replacing the vent on the return goes, is there an equivalent vent/check valve or combination of devices available? (Or does it even matter?) Also would the more modern steam traps on some of my radiators behave if some amount of vacuum was present?

My mental to do list now has the following items.

1 new vent on the return,
2 replace Pressuretrol with Vaporstat
3 refurbish the 17c steam traps
4 clear the orifices of the O-E elbows (has anyone done this?)

I welcome any suggestions prioritizing the list and suggestions for the proper Vaporstat.

Attached a couple of shots with a typical elbow and radiator.

Thanks again,
John

Fred

@_Laughter_ , The Vaporstat you want is Honeywell Model # L408J1009. That is a 0 to 16 ounce Vaporstat. You should put a 0-3 PSI gauge on your boiler as well so that you can actually monitor the pressure. The 0 - 30 PSI gauge that comes with the boiler must stay as it is required by code but they are worthless as far as actually seeing the system pressure. Here is a source for the gauge: https://www.pressureworx.com/product/low-pressure-gauge-25-0-3-psi

Fred

That pipe that elbows over and up also looks like it has some sort of plug or another vent (of some type on it???

_Laughter_

So I pulled off the vent in the photo. It is an f&t trap that had a check added downstream of the trap. The float is good in the trap, but there are absolutely no markings to help identify the make or model of the trap, so I have no idea how to find a replacement thermal element.

Vaporstat is on order as are cage units for radiator steam traps and two vents for the main. After this I should be in a better place to see how the system is behaving.

I've attached a shot of the disassembled old main vent.

Fred

@Sailah or @Steamhead may be able to identify that trap for you.

_Laughter_

> @Jim_R said:
> @_Laughter_ there happen to a "hollow ball" rolling back and forth in there ?
> I already could tell you that you are going to be told "advised" to replace it with something modern .. it's always a good quick answer that fits " all" .. BUT judge your system as a whole and Listen closely to the Steamheads that know and understand that old Vapor Vacuum system .. remember... A 20's steam system is not the same as a 20's Vapor system..
> And there are "elistist" ignore them and their getting away from the "Black Days" of heating.. Maybe time to add Strictly Old Steam section..
> But the ball first !
> Jim
The photo shows from left to right:
1) threaded top cover,
2) cylinder shaped float with a pin that can seal the outlet orifice in the covar,
3) the thermostatic capsule which screws into the bottom of the housing, and
4) the housing

No other parts. I assume the hollow ball you asked about is the cylindrical float.

Perhaps the moderators could move this discussion if it is better in another location.

Steamhead

Fred said:

@Sailah or @Steamhead may be able to identify that trap for you.

Don't know the make, but the construction is typical of main vents. The diaphragm pushes the float up when it expands, closing the vent.

_Laughter_

@Jim_R This is a 1920 Dayton Ohio system. The year then would be right for the pat pending on the traps. The attachment was simply a modern check valve. No doubt an attempt to replace the original check valve. I don't think there are any cracks. I think that is just a surface irregularity.

Thank you so much for the drawing. I will look at the cover more closely. I wonder if the check valve I'd hiding in the cover and need a good cleaning. Hmmm.

mikeg2015

wonder if you could just take a couple Maid o Mist and remove the threaded orifice make a brass adapter to 1/8” not and install a small check valve with the spring removed.

I like the venting to the chimney idea. Might get a little more out of my big mouth by piping it there. I think theres 0.10” draft after my manual flue damper. Chimney is about 40’ high and oversized for a modern boiler with its height.

_Laughter_

After closer examination, the trap has no built in check valve. That explains the addition of the check valve after the trap.

_Laughter_

Sorry you didnt see it above, but the house with is in Dayton Ohio.