boiler water too high/ Water feeder fill it up

itzik

I have a new yorker boiler CLS-6-PT oil
four family two floors..
I have an automatic water feeder and while its working the low water cut off call for water.... then when the wet return come back, I have too much water in the system. Almost one bucket a day.
I turned t off the water to the automatic water feeder and the system work fine, I loose 1/2 inch of water in a day-or two. So i know the coil is not leaking. Now I had a plumber he washed my return and the water are moving.
Still did not solve my problem! its driving me crazy. I read a lot of thread here and I did everything you guys suggested. Maybe i am missing something?
Thanks

JUGHNE

How do you heat your water for your hot water faucets?

itzik

through the boiler. When I shut off the water feeder I see that the water level does not go up. I assume I dont have a hole in the coil.

JUGHNE

It would seem that your auto water valve is passing water.
The pipe might feel cold all the time.

Or often there is a bypass line around the auto valve, it may not 100% shut off.

Some of these auto valves have an inlet screen to protect the valve seat.
You may have something lodged under the seat preventing it from closing 100%.
It might be cleanable.
How about pictures of your boiler showing the piping for the water valve.

itzik

I will take photos later today and post it Thanks!
what it seems to me but I might wrong, thhat: when the boiler is working the water level goes down, then the water feeder is feeding it to where it should be.... but when the water is coming back from the radiators.... its way too much water

itzik

i will say i do have 2 water level cut off. one in the back and one in the front

Fred

If the water in the boiler drops enough, the Low water cut off and the auto water feed are doing what they were designed to do. I would check a couple other things:
- what is the Pressuretrol set at? If too high, it may be pushing water out through the return creating what looks like a low water situation. Make sure the Pressuretrol is set at .5 PSI cut-in and the white wheel inside is set to "1" (facing the front of the Prerssuretrol).
- Make sure the pigtail (looped pipe) that the Pressuretrol is mounted on is not clogged. If it is clogged, the Pressuretrol can't see the actual system pressure and can't control it, allowing the pressure to run rampant.
- Finally, watch the water in the sight glass, during a heat cycle. It shouldn't bounce more than 1/2 to 1 inch. If it bounces a lot more, the boiler may need to be skimmed. Has any new piping been added/changed since the last skim? If so, that would have introduced new oils to the water and that oil will sit on top of the water making it difficult for the steam bubbles to burst through. That can cause the boiler water to be pushed out through the returns too.

itzik

Hi Thanks for the long replay.
I just went there and I dont have two wheels or.... here is photos of my pressuretrol and few of the whole system. I have a feeling the pressuretrol is not set right. what do you think?

Fred

@itzik the gray box on the right is your operating Pressuretrol. The one on the left is just a manual reset. Use the screw on the top of the gray box and turn the Cut-in down to .5 PSI, then take the screw out of the middle bottom of the front and make sure the white wheel is set to "1". Again, the "1" facing out towards the front. While you are working on it, take the Pressuretrol off of the pigtail and take the pigtail off and clean it out. From the looks of it, it hasn't been removed and cleaned in years and I'm betting it is totally clogged.

gfrbrookline

If you remove the screw on the front of the gray box pressuretrol you will find the referenced dial which needs to be set to 1.

itzik

@Fred
ill check it out tomorrow and get back to you. I hope its solving my problem. As for the cleaning is it complicated? I am pretty handy. I assume i have to turn it off and wait until its cold... or there is some thread about it

Fred

@itzik , yes, turn the power off to the boiler. It doesn't have to be cold. That pigtail and Pressuretrol are above the water line. They may be warm but they won't be too hot to handle. There are only two wires on the Pressuretrol and it doesn't matter which terminal they are on as it is just a make/break switch. It is really a simple job.

itzik

@Fred it did not solved the problem. I cleaned the pig tail it was not clogged. It was a little bit dirty water but nothing solid. I flashed it with water and the system is filling up with too much water. I think everything is working as it should be, but when the boiler is working the water goes up as steam, by the time they are back the automatic feeder all ready added some water to the system and its too much.

Fred

Has the wet return ever been flushed out? It sounds like a slow return and the LWCO calls for water before condensate can return to the boiler. If you checked the other things I mentioned and they check out ok, then a slow wet return is the next thing to check.

itzik

@fred I had a plumber installed two globe valve on each side of the wet return and we connected one side to the water. my house is pretty long like 80 feet and has two sides of the wet return both meet right next to the boiler. today i noticed that the front return which is the longest getting warm while the back still did not get as warm or as fast. when we flashed it couple of weeks ago its seems moving... not sure maybe i have to replace the back one or snaking it. Thanks for your replay its really helpful !

itzik

ok I did everything:
- The wet return is flashed (when i plugged a hose in one end the water are moving free and they are clear by now)
- water in the sight glass are not bouncing too much
- the pig tail is cleared and the pressurtrol is set to 1.5( when i look at the boiler while its running i see it cuts off around 4psi) maybe i need to replace the pressuretrol?
- I came back a day after and the water are full all the way to the top of the sight glass and a little more.
- any suggestions?
- Thanks
-

ethicalpaul

Can't you set your pressuretrol to .5 cut-in with a 1 differential?

itzik

i did
but doesn't seems like it cuts off at 1.5

Jamie Hall

Are you getting the pressure off the little 0 to 30 gauge? May not be any too accurate... what does it read when the boiler is off and cool?

As to the boiler water level. Is there any other water connection to your boiler, such as a domestic hot water coil, other than the automatic feeder? That could be leaking, but it's as least as likely that the automatic feeder is leaking by slightly.

Take the water level down to about 2/3 of the way up the sight glass. Turn off the water on both sides of the automatic feeder. Let the boiler run through a cycle and see where the water level comes to after the boiler is coolish again. Should be close to where it started, but certainly no higher. If that works out, let it run perhaps overnight and come back again and look at it. Again, should be close, but no higher. (If it's significantly lower and just doesn't recover-- more than a couple of inches, you may have a leak...) If it's higher, you have another feed somewhere which you need to find... If the water doesn't rise over time with the autofeeder valved off, you've at least found the culprit!

itzik

I did turn off the water feeder and after couple of days the water are a little bit low.
can it be that some of my air-valve are bad? or...?

Jamie Hall

If it's just a little bit low -- yes, could be a vent or two leaking a bit, or a valve or two... very very hard to find small steam leaks.

Various folks have various opinions -- but if you need less than a gallon a week to keep it where it belongs, you're probably OK and just have minor leaks here and there.

And it does sound as though maybe that autofeeder isn't closing properly...

itzik

@Jamie Hall
so you suggest just to change the auto feeder?
I also have two low water cut off. one in the fron and one in the back
The last technician suggested to cancel the back low water cut off and if that wont work to change it to a different type.

itzik

oh also one plumber suggested that maybe my water feeder is too high.

ethicalpaul

Maybe the picture above is old news, but in that photo, the pressuretrol is set to 1.5 cut-in. Is that how it still looks?

itzik

@ethicalpaul yes older photo. Thanks

Jamie Hall

First off, the low water cutoffs have nothing to do with your boiler over filling, unless one of them also controls the autofeeder -- which it might.

Nor is it likely that the control for the autofeeder is too high.

But... before I make further comments on that, I'd need a photos of the boiler showing at least the water level site tube, the low water cutoff locations, and the autofeeder control location.

Now.

This is, I think you said, a multi-family. I'm not sure about the code requirements in your jurisdiction, but in most places two low water cutoffs are required for such applications. Therefore, the technician who suggested cutting one of yours off is not giving you good advice. The one who suggested that the water feeder is too high might be right - but that would just keep the water level in the boiler higher than it should be which, so long as it is in the sight glass, is no big deal.

I'm thinking that maybe you need someone who actually knows what he or she is doing to look at your system. Where are you located? We may be able to suggest someone, or you could try the "Find a Contractor" and search by State.

itzik

@Jamie Hall
here is the low water cutoff photos and the auto feeder.
I am in Brooklyn

Jamie Hall

Try @EzzyT or @Dave0176 or @Danny Scully . All good. All busy.

Dave0176

Jamie Hall said:

Try @EzzyT or @Dave0176 or @Danny Scully . All good. All busy.

Thanks @Jamie Hall I don’t service NYC but @JohnNY does.

Danny Scully

I second that @David107, but thanks as always @Jamie Hall. @EzzyT or @JohnNY are the best options.

Jamie Hall

Thank you guys... I should keep a card file maybe? And why do I keep forgetting @JohnNY ? Sorry John!

itzik

Thank you @Jamie Hall
I was just searching on this amazing site about automatic water feeder and I saw a comment of yours. In it you mentioned your automatic water feeder is set on 10 minutes delay... which company is it?. If i had an automatic water feeder that I can set the delay time and the amount of water it feed. I think it will solve my problems.
right now i have the mcdonnell miller universal water feeder and its set on #1 delay of 30 seconds. would love to hear suggestions of which AW feeder i can consider. Thanks

Jamie Hall

It's a VXT-24. Programmable delay and programmable amount fed, plus a nice visible counter. But check the manual for yours -- there may well be a way to set it to a longer feed delay.

itzik

@Jamie Hall yes I was reading about the VXT. I think, I found online the manual image of what I might have. Right now its set on M&M because this is the lower cut off I have. I can switch it to position 3 and earn another 40 seconds but its seems nothing to me. I still don't understand the initial feed column and the dwell/feed cycles. I mean I think I do but still afraid to mess it up. I just don't want the boiler to get more messed than what it is. is it just as it sounds? initial feed when you install for 100 seconds? and it will operate just one time in a cycle? what is a cycle? is it until my thermostat is satisfied? too many questions... haha

SteamingatMohawk

Here's a very important and eye opening fact. When 1 cubic inch of water turns to steam at atmospheric pressure it occupies 1600 times the volume. At 1 psig it occupies about 1500 times the volume, about 6 percent less volume.

In 2 inch schedule 40 pipe (2.067 inches inside diameter) one cubic inch turned into steam will fill 39.8 feet of pipe. My two family has 2 inch supply lines and smaller ones to each radiator and the condensate return line.

If you have the equivalent of 200 feet of 2 inch pipe that means it only takes 5 cubic inches of water to fill the system with steam. That's about 2.8 fluid ounces. 1 fluid ounce equals 1.80469 cubic inches.

Bottom line, its not a lot of water.

My guess is your automatic makeup has a slow leak, as suggested above.

I haven't tried to figure out what exactly happens if the boiler pressure is much higher.

sraburne

Approx 2 months ago. I had a residential steam boiler overfilling. I installed my first Hydrolevel VXT-24 boiler feed. set it for 10 min delay and 1 gal feed. I haven't heard from them since then. Maybe I should call them, their dog Dustin wasn't doing well.

itzik

yes thats my plan! tomorrow i am changing the pressuretrol and if doesn't solve the problem i am installing the vxt-24 and put along delay on it. Thanks

itzik

@sraburne let me know what they said? if the Vxt-24 fixed the problem.
thanks