Respiratory issues and steam?

GW

Anyone ever have struggles with a boiler change and then discover the occupants have breathing or respiratory challenges? Just looking for tips and suggestions on how to better approach the topic on the front end.

nicholas bonham-carter

There have been some lengthy postings here on peoples’ reactions to a new installation, suffering from respiratory problems.
In those cases, I suspect the boilers were in need of skimming, and the radiator vents were handling most of the air removal. Probably some magic potions were added to the boiler at startup, to “clean” it. Thus the rooms were flooded with a strange mix of fumes.—NBC

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/search?Search=Smell

GW

yes, indeed, I'm talking the 1% that have real issues. And, the general scenario where the person's health concerns perhaps get worse simultaneous to new steam work being done. Thanks

neilc

wasn't there also a "blue" tape used that was found to inferior and troublesome?

Jamie Hall

Gary, much as I hate to actually say it, I suspect that in a few cases there may be a change in respiratory issues after a new install (sometimes for the better, which you will never hear about!). In addition to the more obvious problems, such as -- as @nicholas bonham-carter mentioned -- and slightly less obvious ones, such as the boiler castings themselves taking a few weeks to finish baking out, there is another possibility: if vents were changed, or steam leaks corrected in the piping or valves (or boiler!), the relative humidity in the building, or at least in some key rooms, may have changed. Like various smells, most people aren't really that sensitive to relative humidity -- but there are some who at least think they are, and there are a few who really genuinely are. Might be worth checking...

nicholas bonham-carter

Good call Jaimie, the change from humid air (from steam leaks), to dry after a proper installation could make a big difference to many people.
Maybe some discussion with the homeowners about humidifiers would be useful.—NBC

PMJ

If this is a two pipe there need only be one vent and it can be outside the living quarters. Mine is in the garage so there is no exchange of air from inside the system with air in the living quarters ever.

There really are a number of negative consequences to the continuous breathing in and out of vented systems that were never part of the original plan. Intermittent fire doesn't somehow make it necessary to endure them either.

GW

Thanks all, Jamie, never thought about RH, that's a good idea.

This is a one pipe, installed last summer.

We skimmed about 5 times last fall/winter, and now she's saying she's experiencing problems again. the husband is fine.

We skimmed it last week, and now she thinks it needs to be skimmed again.

We did find a little goop on the skimming last week. Nowhere near the original goop that we got out.

We will try again.

Thanks, Gary

ethicalpaul

One of the greatest things about the mind is how it can connect things together. But even more powerful (and way scarier) is its ability to make connections that aren’t there. Good luck with this one

Dave0176

Yes that’s happened to me a few times.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

If this is a two pipe there need only be one vent and it can be outside the living quarters. Mine is in the garage so there is no exchange of air from inside the system with air in the living quarters ever.

There really are a number of negative consequences to the continuous breathing in and out of vented systems that were never part of the original plan. Intermittent fire doesn't somehow make it necessary to endure them either.

I'm waiting to experience one of these consequences. Honestly I can't even imagine what they are?

The original plan was to heat the building. That was the plan.

Fred

I think the most notorious post I have seen here was from a chemist who insisted that the smell from the new installation caused her (maybe her elderly mother) respiratory problems for months after the installation. She finally had the boiler piping taken apart where they found the blue Teflon tape had overlapped the ends of the pipe and essentially boiled with every firing of the boiler. She had a different plumber put the piping back together being careful not to let the tape hang past the end of the pipe and she later posted that their problems were resolved.

Another poster a plumber who did an installation claimed a similar problem and found that the Blue Monster tape he was using was now being produced in China and thought that that played a role in the situation. I don't think we ever got a follow up from him.

1Matthias

I've found that if the system is really dirty and I add steamaster tablets, the first couple of runs after that will make the entire house reek unbearably..it goes away after running it a couple of times, draining, and refilling with steamaster tablets again.

PMJ

> @ChrisJ said:
> If this is a two pipe there need only be one vent and it can be outside the living quarters. Mine is in the garage so there is no exchange of air from inside the system with air in the living quarters ever.
>
> There really are a number of negative consequences to the continuous breathing in and out of vented systems that were never part of the original plan. Intermittent fire doesn't somehow make it necessary to endure them either.
>
> I'm waiting to experience one of these consequences. Honestly I can't even imagine what they are?
>
> The original plan was to heat the building. That was the plan.

Did you miss that this post is about a consequence of exhaling the insides of the system into the living space?

Less efficiency, increased corrosion, less even heat are some others.

Air is the enemy of steam heat. We all agree the air brought in with new water is bad. But somehow overlooked is the new air sucked in on every cycle. This was not the case in the original plan.

I'm waiting to hear a benefit to the project of heating the building that comes from all this air processing.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

> @ChrisJ said:

> If this is a two pipe there need only be one vent and it can be outside the living quarters. Mine is in the garage so there is no exchange of air from inside the system with air in the living quarters ever.

>

> There really are a number of negative consequences to the continuous breathing in and out of vented systems that were never part of the original plan. Intermittent fire doesn't somehow make it necessary to endure them either.

>

> I'm waiting to experience one of these consequences. Honestly I can't even imagine what they are?

>

> The original plan was to heat the building. That was the plan.



Did you miss that this post is about a consequence of exhaling the insides of the system into the living space?



Less efficiency, increased corrosion, less even heat are some others.



Air is the enemy of steam heat. We all agree the air brought in with new water is bad. But somehow overlooked is the new air sucked in on every cycle. This was not the case in the original plan.



I'm waiting to hear a benefit to the project of heating the building that comes from all this air processing.

I brought that up many years ago and was completely ignored. I'm used to that now, though.

The good news is with my undersized boiler I'm closer to continuous run than most.

Tinman

I just had a disturbing thought. As one of many who have taken apart miles of old boiler piping through the years, can you imagine using one of those pipes as a breathing tube? I have COPD so the very thought of that makes my chest hurt.


Its not a fair comparison, I get that. Its just how my brain is wired.

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

I just had a disturbing thought. As one of many who have taken apart miles of old boiler piping through the years, can you imagine using one of those pipes as a breathing tube? I have COPD so the very thought of that makes my chest hurt.


Its not a fair comparison, I get that. Its just how my brain is wired.

Forget about the rusty old pipes and go listen to vinyl and relax.

PMJ

@chrisj said:

"I brought that up many years ago and was completely ignored. I'm used to that now, though."

There is resistance here no question about that. I proceed ahead anyway. I've made too much real progress. At the heart of it is keeping the air out once it is pushed out the first time just like in the coal days.

@Stephen Minnich, to your observation, I'm not saying it is cause for great concern. I would say it is just another negative to the way the systems are run today. There is a massively greater exchange of air from inside the system with that of the living space than was ever happening with continuous fire. And people want to add chemicals to the water?

I have found dramatically better results operating without the exchange. What exhaling my system must do goes outside. Air is the enemy. Once out, keep it out!

Tinman

I’m in steam heated buildings on a daily basis but only for limited amounts of time. I haven’t had any ill effects. Stairwells are a different story.

GW

Fred said:

I think the most notorious post I have seen here was from a chemist who insisted that the smell from the new installation caused her (maybe her elderly mother) respiratory problems for months after the installation. She finally had the boiler piping taken apart where they found the blue Teflon tape had overlapped the ends of the pipe and essentially boiled with every firing of the boiler. She had a different plumber put the piping back together being careful not to let the tape hang past the end of the pipe and she later posted that their problems were resolved.

Another poster a plumber who did an installation claimed a similar problem and found that the Blue Monster tape he was using was now being produced in China and thought that that played a role in the situation. I don't think we ever got a follow up from him.

Thanks Fred, we never use Teflon/Blue tape on the steam, just on the wet pipes. The 'problem' went away for the mid-later heating season last year

GW

PMJ you're talking two-pipe?

PMJ

GW said:

PMJ you're talking two-pipe?

Yes. 2 pipe. I think going to natural vacuum on those with a single small vent is an improvement everyone with one should consider.

GW

How does one convert a normal single pipe to a natural vacuum? I haven't heard of that one.

GW

Thanks Fred, we never use Teflon/Blue tape on the steam, just on the wet pipes. The 'problem' went away for the mid-later heating season last year

I take that back, we did have one header leak on us once and we spun it out and re-spun with some Blue

And, i normally use Blue on the skim caps

PMJ

GW said:

How does one convert a normal single pipe to a natural vacuum? I haven't heard of that one.

This way attached - the Hoffman 2A. No longer made I understand. Though the popular line here is that Hoffman stopped making them because it didn't work or something, one- pipers have posted on this site looking for more swearing they loved their system in vacuum. Tough go of it here for them no doubt but I think the theory is plenty solid. Also note it says you can use just one on one rad you wish heated a little more in a one pipe system and it will.

GW

ahh the old stuff

Dan_NJ

And there's also this:
https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/vacuum-boost-for-steam-heating-system/