Reworking a Bad Install

whitwo

Background: The previous owner had a new boiler installed for their 1 pipe steam system about 6-8 years ago. I moved in a few years ago and the system just never ran like it was supposed to (at least according to what I read in Dan's book). I posted pics earlier this year and it was quickly pointed out that the near boiler piping was all wrong (so, so wrong).

Present Day: I've got one of the few recommended contractors in the area reworking the near boiler piping (I live in NC, so there aren't many in the area). It's been slow going but they are committed to getting it to match the manufactures diagram. I thought I would post some current state pictures in case something is going off course that I can help get back on track - questions I need to be sure I ask, things to watch out for, etc.

I haven't been able to figure out how they plan to connect the headers yet.

Any help is much appreciated.

Sticker:


Current state:


Manual diagram:


Revision:

whitwo

Link to previous thread that convinced me to have it reworked: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/165282/lots-of-thermal-expansion#latest

KC_Jones

I think they are missing at least one detail. The mains need to be separated and brought down into the header. I marked up your picture a bit to show what I mean. Also (and this is VERY important) The equalizer connection needs to be at the end of the header and the main connections before that and then the boiler risers. The mains CANNOT be between the boiler risers, it's tough to say exactly what their plan is with what is done. It does look like they don't plan on separating those mains and almost like they are going to connect the main between the boiler risers, 2 no no's.

1Matthias

Is it just me, or is that header still undersized? Also, @KC_Jones is right. Unless they fix those mains, it still won't be correct.

JUGHNE

Are there reducing bushings screwed directly into the sides of the boiler? Can't tell from the pic.

Dave0176

1Matthias said:

Is it just me, or is that header still undersized? Also, @KC_Jones is right. Unless they fix those mains, it still won't be correct.

Looks like 2-1/2” which is what the manual calls for, which I feel is still too small. I wouldn’t run anything smaller then 3”. In my opinion they are the worst boiler for steam applications, any ECR or Utica steam boilers.

Also have a question, that boiler is rated at 300,000 BTU? Has an EDR (measuring the radiation) been done on the building to see if the boiler is sized right.

whitwo

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll try and get some more pics closer up.

@JUGHNE They are not using reducing bushings screwed into the side of the boiled.

@1Matthias @Dave0176 the header is 2 1/2".

I'm just getting home to check the work and I can tell they are not going to connect the header between the boiler risers. It looks like they are planning to connect up from the header to the mains and an equalizer back down. I'll try and get a picture.

Question: what is the impact if a single pipe goes up from the right side of the boiler risers to the mains with an equalizer back down?

Fred

@whitwo said: I'm just getting home to check the work and I can tell they are not going to connect the header between the boiler risers. It looks like they are planning to connect up from the header to the mains and an equalizer back down. I'll try and get a picture.

Question: what is the impact if a single pipe goes up from the right side of the boiler risers to the mains with an equalizer back down?

WHAT!!! Why would you pay to have someone re-pipe it incorrectly yet again? They have the picture right in front of them. Why is it so hard to do it exactly like that ?

whitwo

This is what it *looks* like their plan may be. Still waiting to get an updated picture and get a chance to talk to them.

1Matthias

@whitwo That's still not right. Those two mains need to be split up and brought to the header separately. It needs to be done exactly like the manual states, no alterations.

JUGHNE

We see the piping diagram lying on top of the boiler.

Fred

No, No, No, that won't work. Make them do it like the picture in the manual, that you posted above.

1Matthias

In fact, the manual in the photo is turned to that exact page...there's no hope for some..

JUGHNE

To me it looks like a good place for drop header.
I would extend the left riser up higher, double 90 straight back (or not) and drop down into header.
The right riser would go up also, double 90 but angle towards the left with longer nipple between the double 90's to drop into the tee of the header.
Then with the header headed to the right I would 90 towards the front of the boiler above the top of the boiler, placing the "coming at you header" on one side or the other of the right boiler riser...….trying to line the horizontal header up below the 2 steam mains hiding above in the insulation.
Separate the 2 steam mains and drop them down into the header.
Keep coming forward and then a reducing 90 to connect the equalizer.
I would walk the boiler one way or another to line up the steam main drops.
Yes, maybe repipe returns and gas line...but what does that amount to.
The "L" shaped header lets you place a lot of tees above the boiler without being head bangers or attacking the water heater space.

Just an idea, what do you think?

JUGHNE

Drop headers would require 2 more 90's, 2 more nipples.
But easier to install (by swinging the 90's/unions) than trying to hit fixed points.
The L shape requires another 90 and more pre cut nipples.

I will leave the debate over increasing the actual horizontal header size to others.

Dave0176

Once again I will ask the question, what is the EDR of the radiation compared to the boilers rated EDR?? Because if the boiler is too oversized, no piping is going to make it work correctly.

whitwo

> @JUGHNE said:
> To me it looks like a good place for drop header.
> I would extend the left riser up higher, double 90 straight back (or not) and drop down into header.
> The right riser would go up also, double 90 but angle towards the left with longer nipple between the double 90's to drop into the tee of the header.
> Then with the header headed to the right I would 90 towards the front of the boiler above the top of the boiler, placing the "coming at you header" on one side or the other of the right boiler riser...….trying to line the horizontal header up below the 2 steam mains hiding above in the insulation.
> Separate the 2 steam mains and drop them down into the header.
> Keep coming forward and then a reducing 90 to connect the equalizer.
> I would walk the boiler one way or another to line up the steam main drops.
> Yes, maybe repipe returns and gas line...but what does that amount to.
> The "L" shaped header lets you place a lot of tees above the boiler without being head bangers or attacking the water heater space.
>
> Just an idea, what do you think?

I actually started wondering about a dropped header and if that would make the piping easier. I'm having a hard time figuring out the right riser and how that ties in to the header. Are you saying instead of coming straight down into the header come down at a 45 degree angle to the left into the header? That would buy a little more space to turn towards the front.

Forgive the terrible drawing, but something like what I attached? (Yellow being the riser, red for the header and blue for the mains and equalizer)

whitwo

> @Dave0176 said:
> Once again I will ask the question, what is the EDR of the radiation compared to the boilers rated EDR?? Because if the boiler is too oversized, no piping is going to make it work correctly.

I'll see if I can find it in any of the previous paperwork. There are 13 radiators of various sizes to give a rough idea of the scale.

Dave0176

whitwo said:

> @Dave0176 said:

> Once again I will ask the question, what is the EDR of the radiation compared to the boilers rated EDR?? Because if the boiler is too oversized, no piping is going to make it work correctly.



I'll see if I can find it in any of the previous paperwork. There are 13 radiators of various sizes to give a rough idea of the scale.

Here is a radiator sizing chart I use.

Dave0176

The reason I ask is because your boiler puts out 767 sq ft of steam. That’s a big boiler, if you measure all the radiation you should come close to the boiler rated EDR.

JUGHNE

The scenario I envision would have all piping parallel or perpendicular to the "boxtop" square of the boiler.
Except: the horizonal nipples between the upper double 90's that create the drop header...….
The left nipple may angle (rotate the 90/union) slightly to allow connection with a standard nipple in the actual header.
The right nipple being longer than the left one would angle (again rotate the 90/union) almost at a 45 diagonally across the "boxtop" to the left.
I would leave a fair distance between the drop connections on the header and about the same to the 90 that turns the header towards the front of the boiler.

Of course the horizontal header must slope to drain towards the equalizer drop.

The Steam Whisperer

Yes 767 Sq ft of radiation is enough to heat an 9 unit apartment building

whitwo

> @Dave0176 said:
> > @Dave0176 said:
>
> > Once again I will ask the question, what is the EDR of the radiation compared to the boilers rated EDR?? Because if the boiler is too oversized, no piping is going to make it work correctly.
>
>
>
> I'll see if I can find it in any of the previous paperwork. There are 13 radiators of various sizes to give a rough idea of the scale.
>
> Here is a radiator sizing chart I use.

Thanks. I'll take a look and see what EDR I come up with. Based on everything I'm hearing I'm assuming I've probably got an oversized boiler. The gifts just keep on giving....

Oversized boiler aside (for now), they are recommitted to having the piping match the manual (contracts will do that). I'm going to love the hot water heater tonight to give them some more room.

JUGHNE

You mean they can not see the benefit of the drop header to make their job easier?

It would be worth even just the L shape header to be able to drop both steam mains straight down. IMO

Dave0176

whitwo said:

> @Dave0176 said:

> > @Dave0176 said:

>

> > Once again I will ask the question, what is the EDR of the radiation compared to the boilers rated EDR?? Because if the boiler is too oversized, no piping is going to make it work correctly.

>

>

>

> I'll see if I can find it in any of the previous paperwork. There are 13 radiators of various sizes to give a rough idea of the scale.

>

> Here is a radiator sizing chart I use.



Thanks. I'll take a look and see what EDR I come up with. Based on everything I'm hearing I'm assuming I've probably got an oversized boiler. The gifts just keep on giving....



Oversized boiler aside (for now), they are recommitted to having the piping match the manual (contracts will do that). I'm going to love the hot water heater tonight to give them some more room.

@whitwo if your definitely going to keep that boiler, keep in mind it outputs 245,000 Btu that is right on the cusp of a 5” header requirement, however you should be able to get away with a 4” header. Btw my info comes from a chart post many years ago by jstar

pecmsg

That boiler is Huge. Because of that will always have some issues. Banging, shortened life, higher operating costs.
Depending on your situation Donate it to a Not for Profit, take the write off and get a properly sized unit installed by a real Steam expert.
Longer boiler life.
Lower energy bills.
Happier all around.

Fred

pecmsg said:

That boiler is Huge. Because of that will always have some issues. Banging, shortened life, higher operating costs.
Depending on your situation Donate it to a Not for Profit, take the write off and get a properly sized unit installed by a real Steam expert.
Longer boiler life.
Lower energy bills.
Happier all around.

The boiler is probably over sized but until he measures the EDR of those radiators we don't know by how much. My boiler is over-sized as well 866 Sq. Ft. of steam with 700 (15 Radiators) connected EDR. It can be managed very nicely, with a little effort.

Why rip out and donate an 8 year old boiler? There is hardly anything to write off, in terms of donation and it has done the job for 8 years under much worse conditions. Maybe install a two stage gas valve (but we need to know the connected load).

brandonf

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. You can't make this up.

ethicalpaul

I can read it from here!!

BobC

Something is wrong here.

Monkey see but monkey not do.

Choose one, lazy or stupid.

Bob

whitwo

Fred said:

pecmsg said:

That boiler is Huge. Because of that will always have some issues. Banging, shortened life, higher operating costs.
Depending on your situation Donate it to a Not for Profit, take the write off and get a properly sized unit installed by a real Steam expert.
Longer boiler life.
Lower energy bills.
Happier all around.

The boiler is probably over sized but until he measures the EDR of those radiators we don't know by how much. My boiler is over-sized as well 866 Sq. Ft. of steam with 700 (15 Radiators) connected EDR. It can be managed very nicely, with a little effort.

Why rip out and donate an 8 year old boiler? There is hardly anything to write off, in terms of donation and it has done the job for 8 years under much worse conditions. Maybe install a two stage gas valve (but we need to know the connected load).

@Dave0176

My first run at calculating EDR came out to 616. I did not multiply the total by 1.33 or 1.5 to account for pipes - is that something I need to do or is that already taken into account?

KC_Jones

That puts you at roughly 25% over sized.

Make sure your main venting is top notch, it will help keep the pressure from building. Also IMHO this makes the near boiler piping that much more critical.

BobC

The pickup factor is usually factored in. Yhe total radiator EDR sb the same, or a bit smaller, than the boiler nameplate EDR.

Bob

Dave0176

whitwo said:

Fred said:

pecmsg said:

That boiler is Huge. Because of that will always have some issues. Banging, shortened life, higher operating costs.
Depending on your situation Donate it to a Not for Profit, take the write off and get a properly sized unit installed by a real Steam expert.
Longer boiler life.
Lower energy bills.
Happier all around.

The boiler is probably over sized but until he measures the EDR of those radiators we don't know by how much. My boiler is over-sized as well 866 Sq. Ft. of steam with 700 (15 Radiators) connected EDR. It can be managed very nicely, with a little effort.

Why rip out and donate an 8 year old boiler? There is hardly anything to write off, in terms of donation and it has done the job for 8 years under much worse conditions. Maybe install a two stage gas valve (but we need to know the connected load).

@Dave0176

My first run at calculating EDR came out to 616. I did not multiply the total by 1.33 or 1.5 to account for pipes - is that something I need to do or is that already taken into account?

No, no need to add any pickup factor. However your well over 100 EDR oversized. My opinion is this, and thus will help that boiler run much better, I’d would install a 4” header, and run a two stage gas valve with a vaporstat to keep your pressures low, which will also help keep the water in the boiler.

whitwo

It's been a few days so I wanted to post an update. First, thank you to all the feedback - it's been really helpful. The primary "pro" has basically been pulled off the job. The one filling in is admittedly not too experienced, but willing to work as hard as he can to get things right.

It now runs but he has to come back to put the vaporstat on - the pressuretrol on now is a manual reset (that's another story - but one that's getting fixed - ran out of time).

The water level surges but it needs to be skimmed more which is scheduled - I'm hoping that's skimming is the cause and not something I'm missing - does the equalizer look ok?

The steam has been relatively wet so far - is that due to the surging?

Overall - the rough water hammer that led to me starting this whole thing seems to be all but gone.

I'm looking at the main venting next - one thing at a time!

Other feedback?

KC_Jones

I'll take major improvement for $1000.00 Alex.

whitwo

Quick followup - it's been running pretty well since the re-work. I have had to skim several times and blow down the boiler a few until the water really cleared up, but it heats quick and evenly.

However - after a few days of the sightglass being clear I noticed the water was dirty again. At this point I'm considering building a wand to really clean out the inside but I wanted to check here first.

Any ideas on why the water was clean for about a week and then got dirty again? I did add larger main vents - could it just be crud in the mains finally knocking lose? Or just the boiler still not clean?

Thanks!

Update
I just went and checked the sightglass after the last cycle and the water was crystal clear. Looks like it is only dirty when it's running...

Steamhead

whitwo said:

Any ideas on why the water was clean for about a week and then got dirty again? I did add larger main vents - could it just be crud in the mains finally knocking lose? Or just the boiler still not clean?

I think it's crud in the system washing back. Remember, you're now producing much better steam which moves faster because of the main vent upgrade. Keep at it.