California electric rates go to time of use.

jumper

28 cents from 8 AM to 10 PM. 14 cents at other times.
Solar electric must be tied into local grid.
Many Californians will have to live without A/C.

Leonard

Should be reduced rates for old people, heat is life threatening for old people, even in their 60's ,........ the heart issue. We're close enough as it is to heart attacks, with out help getting there.

kcopp

Another reason to get out....

Jamie Hall

And I thought our power was expensive... You misspelled "Kalifornia".

JUGHNE

One of the "benefits" of smart electric meters.

NY_Rob

jumper said:

28 cents from 8 AM to 10 PM. 14 cents at other times.
Solar electric must be tied into local grid.
Many Californians will have to live without A/C.

Should encourage more solar installs...
Will be interesting to see how they handle solar overproduction during the daylight hours with respect to nighttime usage billing wise.

Maybe solar households will not be put on the TOU plans as you generally "square up" with the poco once per year if you have grid tied solar.

hot_rod

A lot going on with electricity and the grid right now. Texas joined the grid, for the first time we have a unified grid.East west and Texas grid all interconnected. Texas leads the nation with renewable energy, lots of wind energy being added to the grid.. Around 1900 microgrids are connected or being connected across the country.

TE Transactive Energy, look for that TE logo next to the EnergyStar label on appliances you buy now. This allows the appliance to determine the cost of energy and operate on time-shiftable schedule. If mid-day costs are high, the AC could stay off or ramp back to a higher temperature, but still maintain cooling temperature for an elderly customer for example. The appliances do have then option to turn the "bidding" function off, balance operating cost against needs or wants. If you want to maintain your space 72F when it's 110F outside you pay more if the grid is maxed out.

Appliances not time sensitive like washer, dryer, dishwasher would cycle on based on the lowest cost of energy. Always-on appliances like refrigerators could adjust temperature, but never above a safe operating temperature, same with heating appliances, with a not below temperature setting.

A module in your home allows bid, balance or self sufficient view of your energy, allowing to see in real time what you are paying and adjust as you desire.

Events like Sandy make the input from local micro grids and attractive. A micro grid with neighborhood produced power could disconnect from the main grid until repairs are complete.

Brooklyn has a microgrid with TE features in development.
EVs in California have the ability to put energy into the grid, a value worth billions of dollars of energy input, just as cruse ships have been used in the past for energy input in emergencies.

With Texas in the grid Congress is fast racking ANGEL Automated Next Genertion Energy Localization more people on the grid producing more power from more sources compared to the large centralized model. Smart meters on an electronic grid basically.

Interesting article in Pop mechanics this month "Welcome to the Microgrid" detailing more about TE.

Also an interesting article on how time keeping can be compromised by power issues.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a19170461/power-fluxuations-are-slowing-down-clocks-in-europe/

Brewbeer

I have a grid-tie solar system in Massachusetts. When it's night, the panels don't make power so I buy power from the grid for $0.21 kwh. During the middle of a sunny day, I only use a fraction of what the panels are producing, so the excess power goes out on the grid, and I receive a credit for the excess, at a rate of about $0.09 kwh.

Around here, the POCO doesn't pay you for excess generation, they provide a credit, which rolls over.

Sal Santamaura

Electric rates in California are specific to the utility supplying a customer and may include a choice of plans. They're not uniform statewide.

Our supplier is San Diego Gas & Electric. Peak times for my service are 4:00 PM through 9:00 PM seven days a week. All other times are off-peak. This was explained as due to a high percentage of generation coming from wind and solar, which fall off during those peak hours while load doesn't.

The bill makes it difficult to understand actual rates, but I just worked through the maze of "generation charges," "delivery charges," "bond charges," "franchise fees," "surcharge tax," "regulatory fees" and the "baseline adjustment credit." Bottom line: fully burdened, i.e. apportioning the bill's entire bottom line, I'm paying 23.5 cents per kilowatt-hour off peak and 36.5 cents per kilowatt-hour on peak. Decommissioning the San Onofre nuclear plant probably accounts for some of our higher cost here.

My most recent bill was $61.70 for 229 kilowatt-hours. Over the last year I've been replacing our most used incandescent bulbs with LEDs. That has kept the total monthly electrical dollar cost from rising more than ten percent.

Jamie Hall

When the four places I now care for were built, the "grid" was more than a century in the future... and I'm currently working on all four of them, to minimize (if not eliminate) their dependence on the grid. It's an interesting exercise... not that hard for new construction (their are several completely off-grid houses in my immediate area, with no real compromises) but a little trickier for historic buildings, if one wants to maintain some modern conveniences!

NY_Rob

^ going forward- if more and more areas switch to extremely high cost TOU plans- I think it would be very lucrative to be someone who can design, build and install systems that can make residential dwellings grid free.

We already see pushback in the cable TV industry with "cord cutters" who have gone back to OTA antenna systems or just drop TV service all together in favor of streaming because of ridiculous cable TV rates.

Raise electrical rates enough... same will happen. Those who can go off grid will.

jumper

NY_Rob said:

jumper said:

28 cents from 8 AM to 10 PM. 14 cents at other times.
Solar electric must be tied into local grid.
Many Californians will have to live without A/C.

Should encourage more solar installs...
Will be interesting to see how they handle solar overproduction during the daylight hours with respect to nighttime usage billing wise.

Maybe solar households will not be put on the TOU plans as you generally "square up" with the poco once per year if you have grid tied solar.

Somebody pays for solar. The more solar,the more that somebody,somebodies actually,pay. Solar requires non-solar backup or storage.

Now if there was a use for intermittent excess the situation could be better. Decades ago there were industrial customers for excess steam that electricity producers sold.

Leonard

And I though we were high at ~ 18 cents/KWH flat rate. ( that's total cost, energy and distribution charges.

Basically they are pushing you to invest in equipment take will store energy for use during peak hours. Old people on fixed incomes aren't going to be able to afford that. There needs to be and expection in rates for that.

Funny that they decided to go ahead with a bidding system for rates, read in my engineering magazines that could cause large oscillations in power demand (system instability). Not a good thing,

NY_Rob

^ According to Jamie Hall they're already doing "completely off-grid" housing in his area. The homeowner pays upfront costs expects a break-even point somewhere down the line.

"their are several completely off-grid houses in my immediate area, with no real compromises"

Of-grid storage isn't difficult- I read my meter last night at 8pm (because I thought the POCO was going to read it this morning), so I read it again this morning at 8AM... we used 10kWh overnight... and that's with A/C on. One Tesla Powerwall2 (13.5kWh usable) would have supplied that with plenty of extra to spare.

hot_rod

quote class="Quote" rel="NY_Rob">^ going forward- if more and more areas switch to extremely high cost TOU plans- I think it would be very lucrative to be someone who can design, build and install systems that can make residential dwellings grid free.

We already see pushback in the cable TV industry with "cord cutters" who have gone back to OTA antenna systems or just drop TV service all together in favor of streaming because of ridiculous cable TV rates.

Raise electrical rates enough... same will happen. Those who can go off grid will.

Technology is making it easier and more affordable to go off, or much less dependent on the grid.

Storage is the holy grail of all renewables thermal, wind, PV.

It is all quite possible in this day and age, just not always economically viable. There is an entire industry built around off griders.

At last years MREA show in Wisconsin, they have a nice video presentation on the history of the off grid pioneers. They had pics from the 1960's of the No. Cal "long hairs" meeting with the suits of Bell Labs to buy prototype and surplus PV modules for off grid living.

How it has come full circle an now the high income %ers are the primary buyers of full home PV systems and EVs.

Leonard

Off grid does have potential now with solar and lithium bats. Still it's a rich man's game till prices come down. Good to maintain link to grid or generator for long winter dark cloudy weeks. Remember in Worcester ,Ma in ~ 1978 was cloudy and didn't see the sun for whole month of either Jan or Feb. (coincidentally that was the blizzard of 1978 ~ 36 inches of snow in ~ 2 days)

$$$$$$$$ Bats will need periodic replacement every X years.

NY_Rob

There are still a few "issues" concerning off-grid solar systems that need to be worked out.
Overproduction during the summer and underproduction (where you produce less then you consume) during the short winter daylight days is problematic.
Overproduction can be stored in a Powerwall(s) type device and the additional can be fed back into the grid on grid-connected systems, but on an off-grid home- no grid to feed back into so it's wasted I guess. How many Powerwalls are you going to buy at $6K per?
Underproduction is a bigger issue because how do you make up for electricity that's not available if it's overcast for several days in a row or your panels are covered by snow or there's just not enough sun hours to produce what you consume? To make up for the short winter days- you'd probably need to install 50% more panels over a system sized to give you a net zero electric bill at the end of a year long cycle. And if you did that.. you'd probably overproduce in the summer by 300%.

Jamie Hall

Spot on, @NY_Rob -- and it's a problem not just for a single structure, but for PV in general. Unless you live in sunny Kalifornia, there simply isn't a good way to cope with it yet.

ChrisJ

Jamie Hall said:

Spot on, @NY_Rob -- and it's a problem not just for a single structure, but for PV in general. Unless you live in sunny Kalifornia, there simply isn't a good way to cope with it yet.

Why do you keep misspelling California?
I'm missing the joke.

Larry Weingarten

Hello, I have lived in an 1800 square foot off grid home I built, for the last 12 years. I've avoided nearly all of the concerns mentioned above by making the house efficient. My solar PV system was inexpensive as it's small (890 watts) and I installed it. The summer overproduction issue isn't as I've got eight L-16 lead acid batteries at about 350 AH each. I do use about 25 gallons of gas yearly with a backup generator. I did need to replace the batteries at seven years, but it wasn't a huge cost.

The house is 2/3 of a mile from grid power and I would have had to underground power to it, which would likely have cost $75K. The 5k or so I spent on solar seems like a good deal and takes me as much as ten minutes a week to look after. Making the place efficient allowed me to do this.

Yours, Larry

hot_rod

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello, I have lived in an 1800 square foot off grid home I built, for the last 12 years. I've avoided nearly all of the concerns mentioned above by making the house efficient. My solar PV system was inexpensive as it's small (890 watts) and I installed it. The summer overproduction issue isn't as I've got eight L-16 lead acid batteries at about 350 AH each. I do use about 25 gallons of gas yearly with a backup generator. I did need to replace the batteries at seven years, but it wasn't a huge cost.

The house is 2/3 of a mile from grid power and I would have had to underground power to it, which would likely have cost $75K. The 5k or so I spent on solar seems like a good deal and takes me as much as ten minutes a week to look after. Making the place efficient allowed me to do this.

Yours, Larry

And your thermosiphon, pump-less radiant wall heat system

Jamie Hall

ChrisJ said:

Jamie Hall said:

Spot on, @NY_Rob -- and it's a problem not just for a single structure, but for PV in general. Unless you live in sunny Kalifornia, there simply isn't a good way to cope with it yet.

Why do you keep misspelling California?
I'm missing the joke.

In joke, I guess, among some folks who spent time near (but not it) San Diego in the mid '60s...

Leonard

Thing is utility power is cheap compared to a fueled generator, long as you don;t have to pay $$$$$$$$$$ to drag a powerline in.

Off grid ......generator can make up for needed power at nights and cloudy weeks. But it's not cheap, typically fuel alone is minimum of ~ 2-4 times cost of utility power, and that's at full-load. Problem is gens drink fuel even at no-load.

Example my Onan 7kw NHM gasoline gen uses
.4 GPG @ no-load
1.3 @ full load

That .4 gal no-load sounds small till you do a 1 week 24/7 continuous run. ( it's 67 gallons, ~ $170). So really need a bat bank and run gen near full load to charge, then shut gen off.

NY_Rob

^ with all that in mind, it seems the best solution for grid-connect homes is choose a plan from your POCO that lets you settle up once/year and size your system accordingly. In the summer you will be ahead of consumption, in the winter you'll fall behind... hopefully you'll zero out the meter in the spring at settle-up time and you won't owe them and they won't owe you.

ChrisJ

My refrigerator runs 33-34 degrees 24 hours a day 365 days a year.
I doubt the poco will be controlling it.

So I've got that going for me, which is nice.

NY_Rob

Yeah, it's actually scary when you consider that the POCO will have the ability to "control" your appliances in the future.

"no soup for you today" may happen

Leonard

Letting refrigerator change it's temp are nice words to make you feel good about higher prices, but in reality not much leeway to do so.

Refridgerator Food needs to be below ~ 40 degs , but above 32 degs. Only 8 deg span , and lot of that is used up by normal temp swings so pump doesn't cycle frequently

Freezer is typically set at about 10 degs, to get more leeway would need it to run ~ maybe -10 or -20 degs which would take more energy (mine took ~ 20 hours continuous running to go from +10 to -25). So your trading off extra energy use for potential cost savings, gut feel is it doesn't work

Don;t eat frozen foods, my freezer section is > 50% loaded up with ice packs ..... for travel and beer. Helps during power outages. But guessing storage would have to be too big to hold the cold ~ 1/2 a day, $$$$$$

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

So I've got that going for me, which is nice.

Wouldn't you rather have total consciousness?

ChrisJ

Leonard said:

Letting refrigerator change it's temp are nice words to make you feel good about higher prices, but in reality not much leeway to do so.

Refridgerator Food needs to be below ~ 40 degs , but above 32 degs. Only 8 deg span , and lot of that is used up by normal temp swings so pump doesn't cycle frequently

Freezer is typically set at about 10 degs, to get more leeway would need it to run ~ maybe -10 or -20 degs which would take more energy (mine took ~ 20 hours continuous running to go from +10 to -25). So your trading off extra energy use for potential cost savings, gut feel is it doesn't work

Don;t eat frozen foods, my freezer section is > 50% loaded up with ice packs ..... for travel and beer. Helps during power outages. But guessing storage would have to be too big to hold the cold ~ 1/2 a day, $$$$$$

Mine keeps it's temp very close. I've never seen it vary much more than between 33-34 degrees. Except of course when you open the door, but it drops rather quickly once it's closed. I assume this is from the mass of the cabinet liner, racks etc.

Due to the thermostat being set in such a narrow range it of course cycles a lot. Typically runs 5 times per hour assuming the door is kept closed.

Leonard

Good control on yours, guessing it's a electronic thermosat (thermistor) . Think lot of the newer fridges have pump thermostat in refridgerator section (the ~40 deg section)

Mine is an OLD green Amana maybe 30 years old , has mechanical thermostat in freezer to control pump. And a separate mechanical thermostat driven door to let cold air from freezer flow into bottom refrigerator section ~ 40 degs. Likely why mine is a bit more sloppy on the 40 deg section. I can't go much lower or I get frozen lettuce.

Seems it's all about which section you want to have tighter control on temp variations, mine is an old design.

ChrisJ

Leonard said:

Good control on yours, guessing it's a electronic thermosat (thermistor) . Think lot of the newer fridges have pump thermostat in refridgerator section (the ~40 deg section)

Mine is an OLD green Amana maybe 30 years old , has mechanical thermostat in freezer to control pump. And a separate mechanical thermostat driven door to let cold air from freezer flow into bottom refrigerator section ~ 40 degs. Likely why mine is a bit more sloppy on the 40 deg section. I can't go much lower or I get frozen lettuce.

Seems it's all about which section you want to have tighter control on temp variations, mine is an old design.

Not exactly, no.....

It's thermostat uses a copper bellows setup connected to a capillary tube charged with methyl chloride.

ChrisJ

I will say this @Leonard, mine is a whole lot older than 30.

tocker

Larry Weingarten said:

Hello, I have lived in an 1800 square foot off grid home I built, for the last 12 years. I've avoided nearly all of the concerns mentioned above by making the house efficient. My solar PV system was inexpensive as it's small (890 watts) and I installed it. The summer overproduction issue isn't as I've got eight L-16 lead acid batteries at about 350 AH each. I do use about 25 gallons of gas yearly with a backup generator. I did need to replace the batteries at seven years, but it wasn't a huge cost.

The house is 2/3 of a mile from grid power and I would have had to underground power to it, which would likely have cost $75K. The 5k or so I spent on solar seems like a good deal and takes me as much as ten minutes a week to look after. Making the place efficient allowed me to do this.

Yours, Larry

@Larry Weingarten Which part of the country are you living?

Larry Weingarten

Hi @tocker , I'm near Monterey California. So far temps outdoors have ranged from 18F to 109F, and I still seem to have survived. A good envelope for the house is sorta important.

Yours, Larry

jumper

Notice that this thread has jumped forward four years.
Californians are now paying double.
If they can stay under the radar and smuggle in out-of-state fuel then they can save $$$ by generating their own.

BobZmuda

I think the worst part of this is they state that solar MUST be tied to the grid. 

Since 2018 lithium iron phosphate batteries have become more commonplace. They’ll last (supposedly) 20+ years. 

I’d rather generate and store my own electricity than hook up to their terrible grid where when it goes down so does your solar system. Keep in mind In another year and a half you won’t be able to buy a gas generator in California unless it’s over 25hp.

Sal Santamaura

Above, in October 2018, I wrote:

Sal Santamaura said:

...Our supplier is San Diego Gas & Electric...My most recent bill was $61.70 for 229 kilowatt-hours...

jumper said:

Notice that this thread has jumped forward four years.
Californians are now paying double...

Today, my most recent bill was $87.59 for 233 kilowatt-hours. That seems like a 42% increase, not double. I wonder how much electrical costs have increased in other parts of the country over the last four years.

This was a particularly warm year, lasting well into the Sep-Oct billing period, so I suppose our handful of fans throughout the house accounted for those extra four kilowatt-hours.

JDHW

From and engineering perspective cutting demand at peak times is good move. In a grid without renewables peak demand involves running more expensive less efficient plant. In the renewable world reducing peak demand could be the difference between everying running or a blackout!

So in the future we will all have smart meters and cost incentives to use less power at times of peak demand. If that doesn't work the smart meters can always be used to disconnect demand in a fine-grained way

Time of use rates are probably coming and here to stay. The UK National Grid (national operator of the power transmission sytem) has come up with a wonderful way of avoiding saying you will be charged more for electricity at times of peak demand - have a look at https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/smart-meter-scheme-to-save-money-and-stop-potential-blackouts/

In summary - at identified period of grid stress we will let you know in advance and give you some money for reducing your demand. How are they going to do this? Well they measure your "normal" demand at peak times and offer discounts for anything less than this "norm". So now everyone taking part will be incentivised to use as much energy as possible at peak times and cut back when the notifications come. You just can't make up the level of stupidity. Wonder how long this policy will last?

John

Hot_water_fan

In summary - at identified period of grid stress we will let you know in advance and give you some money for reducing your demand. How are they going to do this? Well they measure your "normal" demand at peak times and offer discounts for anything less than this "norm". So now everyone taking part will be incentivised to use as much energy as possible at peak times and cut back when the notifications come. You just can't make up the level of stupidity. Wonder how long this policy will last?

@JDHW ha my utility has had this very policy for years. They pay $1.5per kwh saved on a handful (possibly 0) summer afternoons. People have better things to do than try to game the system for what has worked out to be about $5-15 per year. 

jumper

It's arithmetic. Utility requires revenue. So in high cost states people must pay. Just like we must support waste collection service. The lesson is that PUC s in states like California and New York mismanaged for decades so future residents must pay in the future.

I agree that
>>I think the worst part of this is they state that solar MUST be tied to the grid<<

It can actually make sense economically to go off grid for individuals but somehow somebody has to pay utilities for incurred costs.

Sal Santamaura

jumper said:

...PUC s in states like California and New York mismanaged for decades so future residents must pay in the future...

How did those agencies mismanage? Please be specific. How does that alleged mismanagement result in future costs? Please be specific.