Standy generator to power boiler, on demand hot water etc

Jamie Hall

Tie all your grounds to one central grounding location. That should mean a four wire cable from the genset to the house, but otherwise odd things can happen...

djc2232

> @NY_Rob said:
> I picked up an inverter style generator for basic needs (heat/lights) for my mod-con boiler. Got it from Costco... it uses a real Yamaha engine, purrs like a kitten and literally sips gas.
>
> I ran it under load and put an oscilloscope on it's output before running my mod-con with it's ECM pump off of it. Really nice waveform, boiler and ECM pump were happy with it's power.
>
> Only thing is- the small inverter generators are 120v vs. 240v so you need an adapter cable to use a standard 240v 30amp generator inlet to your panel. The adapter cable is about $40 on Amazon.
>
> https://www.costco.com/A-IPower-1600W-Running--2000W-Peak-Yamaha-Powered-Gas-Inverter-Generator.product.100343958.html
>
>
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Now when running just your boiler off this set up is 120 enough to power it? My Eco 70 runs about 370 watts. But of course the three taco 007 pumps add a little more.

Also, do you ground it with a rod or is it grounded through your house?

Bio

I think so.

https://youtu.be/qVHUJcAsV08

https://youtu.be/xAs5P1WHQeA

Leonard

With a gen, electrical code still requires 1 and only 1 neutral /ground (N/G) bond. Typically this occurs in the main breaker panel. . If gen also has a N/G bond you'll need a house transfer switch that also switches the neutral, to meet code. If mini-transfer switch at furnace don't have a N/G bond it likely doesn't need to switch neutral also.

Ground rod or water pipe connection is a separate requirement, but it typically occurs at main breaker panel

Surge suppressors....... only help a little. Believe computer power strip ones conduct at a high ~ 330V. However they can help. I recommended wife's brother add one to his in wall 15k BTU propane heater (had electronics controller). I came back next year and suppressor's green light was out. Which means a large voltage spike came down the line and fried the suppressor disks (likely MOVs). Don't know if heater board died. Maybe was a near by lightning strike, or utility transformer voltage tap switching. Believe the whole house types you install at breaker panel have a higher joule rating ( can take a larger hit, before they die).

Since they both have electronics, lot of similaritys between protecting TV, stereo, computer, MW, and new furnaces from spikes and over voltages.

Do want a ground wire from furnace to power panel.
Don't really think a ground rod at furnace will really help. More likely to have high votlage from hot to neutral. Ground rods are more to give lighting strike current a place to go, and only secondarily help a very very little bit if you lose the neutral to utility power.( copper water line helps more, more length, and connected to other houses).

Reason for ground wire from furnace back to breaker panel is if there is a short to furnace metal frame, the frame might stay live , if it were not for the ground wire to conduct enough amps back to breaker panel , to trip breaker and shut off voltage to live furnace metal frame. Doen't know much about if flame rectification safety needs it.

cwilliams2000

Jamie Hall said:

Tie all your grounds to one central grounding location. That should mean a four wire cable from the genset to the house, but otherwise odd things can happen...

I really love my Honda inverter generator, it runs my heat, well multiple computers during outages. We have them every year 3-6 times and usually one is at least 2+ days so we needed a good one. You can see it on my review and demo at

https://youtu.be/_KCUVtXJCrI

cwilliams2000

Also, this was from last year I made this video while actually being on this generator. The total time was 5 days!!! when it was all said and done. Obviously you need to keep fuel on hand and I do for this reason.

https://youtu.be/zHfIqAiUM-s

djc2232

Cwilliams, I've watched the video on YouTube. Looking at the 7000. Only thing i don't like is the price.

Jean-David Beyer

I have one of these since soon after Storm Sandy cut my power off for 6 1/2 days. I have a W-M Ultra-3 (80,000 BTU input). I have had power fail for several hours at a time since then and the WM has had no trouble with that. The WM is always on because I use an indirect fired domestic hot water heater.

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/home-generators/products?prodNum=14RESAL

It runs my whole house. Including electric clothes drier and electric stove, but when the generator comes on, the drier and stove are automatically cut off (code insisted), but I can let them switch on if necessary. I would make sure the drier was off and use only the stove top, were I to do that. I had a contractor do the entire installation.

Power enters the house from the street to one panel with a 200 amp circuit cutoff switch in it. From there it goes to a second panel with the changeover switch and controls in it. Generator power, when it is running, comes in here too. From there to the panel for the house. The first thing in the panel is a 200 amp circuit breaker, then a whole-house surge protector. Then the regular circuit breakers.

Grounds are maintained everywhere. One ground wire from the panel for the house to a copper water pipe that goes out to the street. It is copper the whole way to the meter, but after that, I do not know. A second ground wire goes to two stakes near the house. Grounding of the generator is done all the way up to the changeover switch panel and from there to the house panel. It was all inspected by the electrical inspector before any of the covers could be put on anything.

cwilliams2000

djc2232 said:

Cwilliams, I've watched the video on YouTube. Looking at the 7000. Only thing i don't like is the price.

I totally hear you on that!!!

NY_Rob

djc2232 said:

> @NY_Rob said:

> I picked up an inverter style generator for basic needs (heat/lights) for my mod-con boiler. Got it from Costco... it uses a real Yamaha engine, purrs like a kitten and literally sips gas.

Now when running just your boiler off this set up is 120 enough to power it? My Eco 70 runs about 370 watts. But of course the three taco 007 pumps add a little more.



Also, do you ground it with a rod or is it grounded through your house?

My HTP UFT80W mod-con draws under 100 watts with the boiler firing and either pump (spaceheating or indirect tank) running IIRC. The generator can put out 1,600 watts.... so no sweat handling the mod-con.

I plugged the standard 3-wire power cord plug from the mod-con into an extension cord then plugged that right into the generator's front panel directly during the test run earlier this year.

Now that I have a proper generator inlet box (added it a couple months back when upgrading from 100 to 200 amp service for upcoming solar system install) the 120vac inverter generator will plug into the 4-wire adapter cable, that will plug into my 50' generator cable which will plug into the inlet box on the side of my house. All grounds are through the 200 amp panel which is bonded to my copper water main and a new ground rod that was installed outside the house.

An inspection was done on the complete system and it passed without any revisions being needed.

Leonard

No experience with these furnaces, but my engineering gut feel is you don't need a super clean gen, just don't want to use a cheapie bottom of the line gen or inverter that has non-sinewave, poor voltage regulation, or spikey waveform. Some cheaper gens use a capacitor to regulate voltage, supposedly has poor voltage regulation, and can distort waveform a little. Gens with internal electronic AC voltage regulator do better (it changes field rotor excitation to maintain steady output voltage with various loads)

I believe utility voltage range standard is 120V plus/minus ~10 volts.
And IEEE standard for "sensitive" equipment is plus/minus ~ 5 volts.
My opinion is if equipment is "sensitive" it's poorly designed.
My Onan 7NHM (similar design to 4BGE/6.5NHE) a holds plus/minus 1 volt on the 120V hot it senses off of, has electronic AC voltage reg. Can be re-configured to 120/240 output, by moving ~ 3 wires.

Problem I see with honda eu7000is is high cost and fuel tank is SMALL, only ~ 5 gallons. Have to get up in middle of night to re-fuel it if your pulling a medium load.

Ad says UP TO 18 hours on 5.1 gal, (0.28 GPH) that means that number is @ ~ no-load. At full load your likely to be drawing more like 1.3 GPH so tank will be dry in < 4 hours.

For long outages want a larger external tank so you can ignore it for 24 hours or so, if it's cold , windy and sleeting outside.

When using external tank on ground, Onan uses a 12V gas pump of ~3-4psi output to feed on it's gravity tank feed type carbs. Can't use a regular car gas pump, they make at least double that pressure, so carb's float may not be able to shut off flow , spilling gas out carb, fire hazzard. I plan on welding up an old 100 pound propane tank into a 24 gal gasoline tank for my Onan 7NHM.

They sell kits to convert gasoline engines to propane, basically a Garetson K2 demand reg and a snorkle or adapter before the carb.

cwilliams2000

I can tell you that you definitely do not have to refuel in the night. That tank runs much longer than you think. Remember too that its inverter so the engine rpm drops to match the load which extends the run time. In practice for my household I refuel 2x per day. Usually when I go to bed and then when I wake up and it's no where near out of fuel.

FranklinD

I went a slightly different route, as I already have 400 watts of solar installed and about 450 amp/hours of storage at 24 volts. I have a 1500 watt pure sine wave inverter (and a 3000 watt cheap modified sine unit as well), so I have no problem running my cast iron boiler and bumblebee circ. The boiler doesn’t mind the modified sine, though the bumblebee buzzes and gets alarmingly warm, so I run them on the 1500. Anyway. I had a few heavy-duty truck 100 amp 24v alternators with built-in regulators (just a ground and positive connection, regulator is self-contained internally). I used some pulleys and a v-belt to connect it to an 8hp B&S engine and played with the ratio to get a solid 35-40 amps at 29 volts without the engine screaming. I charge the battery bank directly with this setup. I’ve never actually had to use it during a power outage, but good to know it’s there. Those inverter gennies are SO amazingly quiet...we use one to run our fire training house trailer at all the area schools every fall during Fire Safety Week, and can leave it right next to the trailer and not hear it inside. If I didn’t have the spare parts laying around and they weren’t so pricey, I would’ve loved to buy one.

Leonard

Running motors on modified sine ( pulsed square wave) should make them run hotter than normal. The energy in those harmonics don't do work, only generate heat. Likely as iron losses in the magnetic laminations, (those losses increase as frequency increases). Same heat issue for transformers and solenoids.

FFT .... that pulsed square wave is equivalent to a 60 hz sine wave with a bunch of sine waves running at harmonic frequencues ( 120, 180, 240, 300 ....) superimposed on it. It's the harmonics that cause all the noise and extra heating

Heat is not good for winding insulation life. Any motion between windings due to possible mechanical resonance might eventually scrub insulation off winding, and cause a short. Guessing long term it won't do bearings any favors either, vibration dither.

djc2232

Just spoke to Weil McLain customer support. With my setup, primary pump on the return which is hooked into the boiler control board, then two zone pumps. I don't utilize a pump controller. The boiler, and three taco 007 pumps are hooked into the one breaker swtich. I'd have to either run the heating on full 240, which isn't an issue. Just have to get a genset with the 120/240 outlet. Or Install a zone controller. Which for this project I don't want to do. Plus it just puts another piece of equipment Into the heating system which I dont want. The simpler the better.

Leonard

Does your heating equipment need 120/240? Or does it only need 120 , but way it's 2 breakers are located in main power panel you have to energize both hot busses in panel?

Maybe can move one breaker to same 120 bus , after checking for shared neutrals ( could be a fire hazzard)

djc2232

Nope, just one breaker for everything. 120 should power the heating system as evidence of others in this thread and the WM rep. I just have everything fed into that one so when just running the heating breaker on gen it will require 240.

Leonard

With only one 120V breaker I don't understand why you need 120/240 to run furnace. I assume there's no 240V electric water heater loads.

Convenient though to have gen make 120/240 so you can selectively power up any house load, rather than only 1/2 your breaker panel slots.

SlamDunk

i have been actively researching this myself after hurricane florence changed course and missed us.

My requirements are to power steam boiler, fridge, sump pump and a few convenience outlets/lights.

I am favoring the yamaha ef4500 for@$2700.00.

pricey, but really quiet for urban living and comes with electric starter, auto choke and remote control.

If it ran on propane, it would seal the deal. I can only store so much gasoline then i have to search for fuel like Mad Max.

Finding something this quiet that runs on propane would be the holy grail!

djc2232

True, not sure if WM customer service miss read my question but I can't see the ECO boiler with three taco 007s requiring 240 when it's all on one switch.

djc2232

> @SlamDunk said:
> i have been actively researching this myself after hurricane florence changed course and missed us.
>
> My requirements are to power steam boiler, fridge, sump pump and a few convenience outlets/lights.
>
> I am favoring the yamaha ef4500 for@$2700.00.
>
> pricey, but really quiet for urban living and comes with electric starter, auto choke and remote control.
>
> If it ran on propane, it would seal the deal. I can only store so much gasoline then i have to search for fuel like Mad Max.
>
> Finding something this quiet that runs on propane would be the holy grail!

Search a little further back on this post. There is a site that sells the Honda inverter gens converted to propane. You can buy the kits and will come with the propane hose and hookup with the generator.

SlamDunk

they sell them for yamaha’s too. voids warranty. plenty on you tube demonstrating the kits. may have bite the warranty issue.

In thirty years, I was without power for mor than a day once, after huricane Fran. that was for nine days. After five days without power, I felt like an animal. the feeling stays with you.

djc2232

It does. I'm about 20 miles south of the Canadian border in northern NY. It's the snow and ice for us so keeping the heat on in the winter is top priority for me in the winter.

NY_Rob

djc2232 said:

True, not sure if WM customer service miss read my question but I can't see the ECO boiler with three taco 007s requiring 240 when it's all on one switch.

Your boiler is 120VAC, see page 58+ in the install manual...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/Weil McLain-383-800-003-Install Instructions.pdf

Leonard

With a single wide breaker your only going to get 120V, To get 120/240 need a double wide breaker so it spans both buss hots in breaker panel. (or 2 single wides)

Slamdunk........For ~ 4 to 7 kw a used Onan BGE/NHE, BGD/NHD, or BGM/NHM is a very reasonable option @ ~ $400-600 running on craigs list if you wait for them to show up. They are made for RV's so : Come in either gasoline or propane, have remote electric start, auto choke, clean sine wave, AC voltage reg, and are 1800 rpm, so it's quiet. Also they usually have < 250 hours on them, hardly broken in.

I have a 7kw version 7NHM, can't hear the exhaust. Has some mechanical engine noise, nothing a doghouse won't cure. RV's have gen compartments. But much quieter than any 3600 rpm screamer.

Can buy a lot of gas for price difference between $2700 and $600. Unlikely your ever going to run a costly $$$$$ inverter gen enough hours for gas savings to break even over initial extra cost.

BGD/NHD is 120/240 from factory. The others are 120V only output from factory, but typically can re-configure to 120/240 by moving 3 wires (if they brought all 4 leads out of the stator, most did, they have two 120V windings, parelled for 120, series for 120/240) https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154516

Solid_Fuel_Man

The voltage regulation of any generator is the key to decent power. As had been said, cheap gen sets use a simple capacitor which leads to quite a bit of sag when the generator is actually loaded. I own a cheap propane portable generac (LP3250) which serves my well pump and boiler fridge etc. I also have a W-M ECO70 which doesn't mind the poor quality power of a 3400rpm screamer. My PSC circulators do make some noise as I know there are harmonics. A good quality UPS is the best thing to clean up power and is great for wood boilers to run a circulator whilst i decide if I'm gonna connect generator.

djc2232

Solidfuel, thanks for chiming in. Was hoping that some of the other ECO users out there utilize a generator. A few have already stated in the post that they didn't think the ECO boiler would mind a regular generator.

SlamDunk

Thanks Leonard! I'll look into it.

Leonard

Skam Dunk...... good site for Onan info
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1

BGE/NHE Onan spec # > G (version #) have a true AC voltage reg (electronic type). Specs A-F don't have a true voltage reg, they have a voltage booster that maintains voltage as you add load kws

One issue with BGE/NHE type models I listed is electronic voltage reg can die if you let gen sit for months and don;t clean oxide off slip rings before making power. I just let mine sit , but I clean slip rings before use , it's easy just pop off a plastic cover and clean. I view it as small price to pay for really clean power and reliability, no gen is maintenance free. With about any brand gen it's recommended you run gen at least once every 30 days. This should prevent need to clean slip rings.

I notice even Generacs have this increased brush contact resistance to slip rings. ( doubled the rotor ohms). So I suspect it happens to all gens.

Bit older but 7.5kw Onan JB doesn't have this issue, yet still have clean power. Built like a tank, looks to be a ~ military design, with normal oil changes even a 1960 one will likely will outlive you. Specs AA and greater don;t have brushes to clean (Onan YD genhead).

6.6 NHE pic = https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jm7gr0x_UbQ/maxresdefault.jpg
7.5JB pic = https://www.smokstak.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=293659&stc=1&d=1508124216
Both come in gasoline or vapor fueled.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Seems I've worked an an Onan genset which was powered by a v-twin Robin (Subaru). Maybe in a motor home? I think it was LP fueled as I recall.

Leonard

Believe Onan made all their own engines for their RV and their "real " gens .

Except for their contrator type gens for jobsite power. And some cheaper ~1 cylinder type gens maybe for home use to compete with cheap gens from China. Don't think much of those, shorter life than their "real " gens. But I think even some of those had an electronic voltage reg. They are off my radar, I like their better ones.

Solid_Fuel_Man

This is a Cummins powered generator I worked on a month ago. V12 twin turbo, 28 litres, or 1,710 cubic inch engine! It was loud to say the least.

Leonard

BIG!!! guessing it's diesel
no-load 35 GPH
Full load 110 GPH

How many KW ?
900 ??

Solid_Fuel_Man

760kw, 480volt. Not sure the fuel consumption....a lot! It runs a rock crusher (200HP) and several 100+HP motors for quarry equipment. I work on the engine controls&safeties (on board) and wire the line voltage stuff as well.

The black smoke rolls when we start up the loads, but cleans up well with everything going.

Leonard

Nice gen.
New estimate on fuel consumption. Based on ratioing kw size with my 7kw gasoline gen, and chop in 1/2 for diesel. Ratioing is a reasonable guesstimate.

21 GPH no-load
70 GPH full load
Maybe few % less for the turbo.

How many rpm , 1800?

Solid_Fuel_Man

Yes 1800 rpm, twin turbocharged, one for each cylinder bank, no compounding or anything.