Standy generator to power boiler, on demand hot water etc

djc2232

Having my generator hook up repaired and built to code. Just powering essentials like heat, well pump fridge and freezer and few lights/outlets.

My main concern is my heat. I have a Weil Mclain ECO 70 mod con boiler and radiant in floor heat. With the fancy electronics and sensors in that boiler effect what kind if generator I buy? Will I need a Honda inverter or would a regular generator suffice. I just don't want to fry any delicate controls in my boiler.

I also have a pellet stove that heats house very well that shouldn't be effected by generator power but I'd like to at least keep the boiler going to prevent freeze up.

Jamie Hall

You will either need something that provides really clean, electronics level power, like the Honda inverters, or a power conditioner for the electronics -- and that includes any high fidelity or TV equipment as well. With the demand you have, I personally would go with the Honda or equivalent.

Leonard

No idea on boiler but, Called factory on a Colman? gen I think it was, was told they had ~ 20% THD ( that's HIGH) , in form of spikes on near top of sine wave. Think they use a cheap capacitor "regulator" to save cost, ( like many cheap gens use). Don't have a real electronic AC voltage regulator.


Onan made some real quality gens in the past, and even old they are still more reliable and last longer than many 3600 rpm screamers in box stores.

Onan gens use a real AC votlage regulator and the sine wave looks pretty clean. Models like 7.5JB, 4BGE/6.5NHE, BGD/6,5NHD, 5BGM/7NHM, A plus is they are 1800 rpm gens so pretty quite. The electronic AC voltage regulator in these is very good, it can mantain 120V within ~ 1-2 volts from no-load to full load ( on the one 120V hot lead it monitors). Typically many gens only monitor ONE hot lead of 120/240, so if you want real tight voltage regulation on 120, load up each hot lead one at a time to determine which hot the AC votlage reg is connected to. Or just open it up and look.

I have an Onan 7kw NHM , it's pretty good with my house loads, have 60 year old CI boiler so no real test there.

Older Onans like BG NH models , exciter cranked have commutators so could have minor spike issues if mica is not clean. Also they use magnetic saturation technic to regulate voltage, so they might be 130VAC at no-load and towards 110 at full load.

Quality slipped on the newer Onan models ( for example 2.8KV , 4KY,)
Good website for Onan info, lot of old experienced techs there https://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1

On another boiler , some german one, (Bolderbuss maybe??) had a problem on generator power, but not on utility power. Turned out it wasn't the gen, it was boiler safty "flame rectification", was not wired correctly inside boiler. Something about flame rectification in boiler was wired to neutral instead of ground ( or vice versa). He wired flame rectification as per boiler factory specs and boiler then ran fine on gen power

nibs

If you expect to use the genset very occasionally either make sure you add fuel stabilizer, or the carburator may gum up.
Propane of NG are a better choice if the unit may sit for a year or two between uses.
Honda's and Yamahas are the quietest and are very reliable.

Leonard

Problem with inverter gens is if the inverter modual dies, it's a very $$$$$ non-repairable electronics package. Theres a few videos on web on how to replace it, so maybe not that low a failure rate..

Definately add gas stabilitzer, I had a Generac I picked up free and fixed. Crummy design, was lot of work to remove the carb to clean it. After few months carb started to plug again, had to clean carb again. Didn't want to clean it again so I dosed it's gasoline tank with ~ 3-5X recommended dose of stabilizer. Sold it after a year, carb still wasn't plugged. Stabilizer works, without it ethanol in gasoline sucks humidity out of the air and gells up after month or so.
One humid cool day I watched a water layer develop in a pizza pan of gasoline after 15 minutes

Jamie Hall

Some very good thoughts up there. And yes, if you can pick up an old generator -- Onans were good, so were old Generacs -- but I do mean old; at least before the year 2000 -- in working condition, that will be fine. Before they started getting efficient and quiet and compact and all that.

Fuel treatment. Oh yes. There are several brands of ethanol fuel treatment. You should be using fuel treatment in any gasoline powered equipment -- two cycle, four cycle, doesn't matter, new or old, doesn't matter. You should also be using it in any car or truck that isn't used often enough to need new gas every week or two, or which was built prior to about 2000. Ethanol gas not only attracts water and gums up, it eats seals and gaskets and float needles -- and in really older equipment, corrodes the metal of the carburetor.

STEVEusaPA

I have a Kohler, whole house. I have 2 AC units/air handlers, Tekmar controls on my boiler, 2 refrigerators, electric oven, electric dryer and all other kinds of gadgets. Never had a problem. I also have 3 load shedding devices that would open circuits if the load was too high.
Before that I used a portable Generac 6500W, circa 2000, disconect the main, backfeed the panel (I know, I know, but it was just me working it), also never had a problem.

If you were really concerned about clean power, run the circuit the boiler is on through a UPS.

hot_rod

If you use gas, shop around on this site for a location to buy ethanol free gasoline. Friends around here use it bin their mowers for winter storage.

You may find gallon size cans at places like Tractor Supply, etc.

STEVEusaPA

HD sells it a TruFuel. It's quite expensive there. A local small airport nearby has ethanol free gas.

nibs

After commenting above, looked for propane conversion kits on line, you can buy kits for hondas and others which will convert them to propane, natural gas, and still allow the use of gasoline.
To be honest, have lived and worked with generators quite a bit, but do not know how reliable the kits may be.
In my coach conversion have a 7kw Kohler that is 40 yrs old running on propane, and it works well.

flat_twin

Here's a list of places that sell ethanol free gasoline.
https://www.pure-gas.org

I wired a small transfer switch for two circuits. One for the boiler and the other for the kitchen circuit with the fridge. I measured .9 amps on the boiler circuit (Eco 110 with one circulator). The fridge is rated at 8 amps. An easy load for a Honda 2000. I replaced an old 5500 watt generator with the Honda specifically for the clean power. A friend who works in appliance repair recommended an inverter type for the control boards on modern appliances. Makes sense for the boiler controls too.

djc2232

This set up is for emergency power if it goes out. Usually does once or twice a winter.

Gas isn't an issue, my local gas station has ethanol free 91 octane. Been using it a while with no issues. WM customer service said to get a genset with true sign wave. Which I think means one like a Honda inverter. I have a Honda dealer in my town so I can check them out there. Only thing is they are expensive.

Heard good reviews on the Northstar generators made sold by Northern Tool. They come with the Honda GX series engines used in their gensets. They are listed safe for sensitive electronics but also say they have a THD of less than 5%. Some consumers reported around 4.

I'm having a manual external transfer switch Installed to code and the inlet connection redone that's out In the old wood shed. Only going to have essentials. Well pump, on demand water heater, smoke detectors, fridge and freezer, boiler and some recepticals in living for lights and to run pellet stove. I have lamps and other stuff if I need light In other rooms.

Probably won't even run all that at same time anyways. Just want to make sure I have power to keep the boiler running and we'll pump going to use water when we need it. Even then it's not running all the time. The big draws would be the well pump and fridge and freezer.

NY_Rob

I picked up an inverter style generator for basic needs (heat/lights) for my mod-con boiler. Got it from Costco... it uses a real Yamaha engine, purrs like a kitten and literally sips gas.

I ran it under load and put an oscilloscope on it's output before running my mod-con with it's ECM pump off of it. Really nice waveform, boiler and ECM pump were happy with it's power.

Only thing is- the small inverter generators are 120v vs. 240v so you need an adapter cable to use a standard 240v 30amp generator inlet to your panel. The adapter cable is about $40 on Amazon.

https://www.costco.com/A-IPower-1600W-Running--2000W-Peak-Yamaha-Powered-Gas-Inverter-Generator.product.100343958.html


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djc2232

Sharp. With my needs I'm looking at around 5000 surge. Modcon boiler with 3 taco 007 pumps, well pump, smoke detectors and a few others. Looking at the Honda eu7000. Just so dang expensive.

Bio

Check these guys, the EU7000is runs on propane or natural gas, a bit pricey tho, but you get what you pay for

http://www.genconnexdirect.net/honda_propane_modified_generators.htm

JUGHNE

For heating equipment I have changed the service switch to an outlet. Then install a good grade power cord on the furnace/boiler/water pump if 120 VAC. The HO can then run the generator outside with cord coming in thru basement window.
Or a cord up to fridge/freezer.

I have a fair sized UPS at my desk and can operate necessary items for a while. A desk light with LED or CFL bulb goes a long way in a dark house.

Bio

JUGHNE said:

For heating equipment I have changed the service switch to an outlet. Then install a good grade power cord on the furnace/boiler/water pump if 120 VAC. The HO can then run the generator outside with cord coming in thru basement window.
Or a cord up to fridge/freezer.

I have a fair sized UPS at my desk and can operate necessary items for a while. A desk light with LED or CFL bulb goes a long way in a dark house.

This one will do the job as you mentioned and it's UL Listed

EZ GENERATOR SWITCH - Generator Manual Transfer Switch UNIVERSAL UL/CSA approved https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FADDE0A/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apu_OwvRBbSQ5PC42

Leonard

That waveform on the Yamaha is a bit trashy near peak of the sine wave. That will result in a bit of THD . Waveforms on the Onans look cleaner.

One issues with gen powering a well pump is some/many wells need a lot of KW to start. Very questionable if a 2kw gen will start them. Hear a 7.5kw Onan JB has no problems.

Regarding male plug on a furnace , I think code says "fixed" appliances like that need to be hardwired, not pluged. Check me on that. Mini transfer switch in above link sounds reasonable for just the furnace load.

Or for ~ $120 can get a mechanical interlock and pair of breakers and install it in breaker panel. That way with load management can selectively power any load in house, including furnace. The one cravat with interlock is to meet code the gen can't have it's own neutral ground bond. But in many gens that's not hard to accomplish. interlocks = https://natramelec.com/

For $ couple hundred more can get a ~ 6-8 circuit transfer switch and install it at breaker box for your "can't do without" and run a larger power cord to generator. http://cssmith.co/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/reliance-transfer-switch-wiring-diagram-6-circuit-kit-with-power-cord.jpg

I think issue with inverters is some stand alone non-gen ones are cheap, and put out a semi square wave and have a THD of ~ 22%. Example is some that connect to a 12V car bat for tailgating, or a cheap computer power backup UPS. Suspect most gen inverters have real sinewave output.

JUGHNE

It looks like you would need one of these transfer switches for each item you wish to power during a power outage, yes they look very good if installed properly. However you need to see what HO are capable of, I have seen extension cords with a male end installed on each end......what could that result in?

The outlet I install is UL listed as is the power cord for the heating unit. The only glitch is that the power cord is not part of the original equipment and may not meet the listing under code.
If common sense is applied, what is the problem with a cord on your furnace?? My local inspector understands the practically of all this.
Just thinking of all things you may want to power up during an power outage:

120 VAC heating equipment
120 VAC for power vented water heater
sump pump
sewage pump (a royal flush beats a full house)
freezer (maybe 2)
refrigerator (maybe 2)
microwave oven
coffee pot (yes)
the UPS for internet, phone charger, weather radio etc.
water pump...most here are 240, but the same outlet with the correct extension cord would get you water.

So you ration your small gen power around the house as needed.

Also, a UPS may clean up the power for a modern boiler if installed between the gen and boiler.

Leonard

Power cord on furnace ...... No expert on it , I just remember reading an artical on it in an electricians magazine EC&M few years ago..

I did notice the irony that some installed fixed appliances like disposal where allowed to be cord plugged while other things weren't. Never saw an installed dishwasher cord plugged.

However on an RV (mobil home) it's common to use a cord to either plug into RV's gen or extension cord from "shore power". Maybe UL code doesn't apply to non-buildings ??

djc2232

The electrical contractor I'm going through is a solar/alternative energy company. They also do auto standby gensets and general electrical work.

I'm having a manual transfer switch being installed in my carport as my utility closet doesn't allow enough room after new boiler install. Only going to have them run the essentials to the transfer switch panel. (Boiler, well pump, smoke detectors, utility closet which is where my tankless on demand is plugged into, fridge and freezer and living room outlets to power pellet stove if needed).

Granted I wont be running all that at the same time. Most power draw would be from well pump and fridge and freezer. Just what I need in a pinch if power goes out.

With the transfer switch I installed and genset hooked into house electrical system it should ground it without needing a grounding rod.

Right now I'm looking at the honda eu7000is. Heard nothing but good about that one. Except the price.

nibs

The smaller Honda's put out 60 volts on the hot and 60 volts on the common. Do not know about the larger ones.

Bio

An interlock that is made for your panel is a lot cheaper than the transfer switch, you will just turn on the breakers that you need to power

https://www.ebay.com/i/172254359314?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-117182-37290-0%2F2%3Fmpre%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fi%252F172254359314%253Fchn%253Dps%26itemid%3D172254359314%26targetid%3D477790060745%26device%3Dt%26adtype%3Dpla%26googleloc%3D9003472%26poi%3D%26campaignid%3D1489277946%26adgroupid%3D59088561058%26rlsatarget%3Dpla-477790060745%26abcId%3D1139306%26merchantid%3D6296724%26pt%3D%26gclid%3DEAIaIQobChMIwMfaubfc3QIVWImyCh2OcgWQEAQYAiABEgL0LvD_BwE%26srcrot%3D711-117182-37290-0%26rvr_id%3D1683836565015%26rvr_ts%3D1d8f4f691660ab6bb0f6b002fff5283d

djc2232

True. But to make it code I have to have the transfer switch. Asked about the interlock as I already have a separate breaker for my generator.

Leonard

Believe code allows an interlock...... so inspectors should allow it. Unless gen contains a neutral/gound bond ( that you can't remove). Suppose other possibility is if you have something other than a simple breaker panel set up.

For some reason New Jersey doesn't allow interlocks. But then again they don't allow you to pump your own gasoline either.

Double male plug cord ...........just say no .....not even close to code.

If you need a transfer switch between breaker panel and meter, I believe it must be "service equipment " rated.

Leonard

My engineering gut feel is furnace won't be any more fussy than a tv on gen power.

Many electronics use a switching power supply instead of old fashion transformer and voltage reg. Switching power supplies will work fine on any lousy waveform, even square wave that many cheap computer UPS give them.

So if furnace uses a switching power supply it likely will accept any crappy power and be happy with it.

NY_Rob

I guess it depends on a combination of the boiler, it's pumps and the quality of the generator waveform.

Old atmospheric boiler with 007 pumps will run on garbage waveform, low voltage and even off 60Hz sync. Mod-Con and ECM pumps are much more fussy.

I ran my Grundfos Alpha on a APC Back Office UPS as a trial... it was literally singing! I disconnected it immediately. I put that UPS on my scope... look at the garbage waveform from a $100 UPS...

I didn't have the nerve to actually fire up the mod-con on that UPS.

I then ran it off my CyberPower CP1500PFCLCD PFC Sinewave UPS with a waveform that is almost identical to my inverter generator:


The ECM pump ran perfectly quiet with that power source as it does with the inverter generator. I fired up the mod-con while on that UPS and the inverter generator.. ran flawlessly on both.

I wouldn't run a mod-con and ECM pumps off just any old generator without checking it's waveform and listening to the ECM pump while actually running.

djc2232

I do know that the ECO series has a transformer. Just not sure what it's for. Send power to the igniter to light the burner? Not sure. WM customer support did recommend using a generator that produces true sine wave. Boiler itself puts put around 360 watts according to his message back.

My boiler has 3 taco 007 pumps. The simple ones. 1 primary on the return near the boiler as it should and two others one for each zone.

I'd rather go with he switch anyways. Only doing a hanfull of circuits. Some would be even useless.

Plus I don't have a nice ociloscope to test waveform. Wouldnt know how the hell to use it anyways. Just don't want to risk my investment as the boiler only has one winter under it's belt.

NY_Rob

^ well there's your answer directly from the manufacturer "WM customer support did recommend using a generator that produces true sine wave."

$4k for that Honda EU 7000 is nuts.

Thinking outside the box....
Get a 1600watt inverter gen like the Yamaha from Costco for $500... just use that for the boiler and some lights if needed.

Get a regular 5,500 watt Generac from HD for $700 for the rest of the house.

$1,200 investment vs. $4,000 investment

Larry Weingarten

Hello, A different way of approaching the problem could be to install a battery bank, which is kept charged with grid power. Then use it to power a pure sine wave inverter, when power is down.

Yours, Larry

djc2232

^ that's not a bad idea. If I had a Costco around here lol.

But I might do that. We usually prep anyways for incoming storms by filling jugs with water and such and wouldn't need the well pump. The fridge and freezer are the next biggest wattage suckers but they can stay cool for quite a while. I can't even remember if the auto feed has ever kicked on for the boiler since I've had it other than when flushing the system with fresh water.

4k for a portable. Might as well Invest in a whole house automatic standby.

Since we we've had the house we have been here for two winter's going on three. Each had 1 power outage due to weather.
First year was with the OWB but that only lasted 2 hours. Last March we had a nasty wind storm blow through and knocked pretty much the entire county out. We we're lucky to only be without power for about 6 hrs. Some towns were put for a few days. It was only mid 30s but by the time I got home from work house was a little chilly. I don't care if it's out during the summer.

The little Honda 2000 or 3000 isn't a bad price and nothing but good reviews on them. I do like the fuel Injection on the 7000 though. But carb maintenance isn't an issue. I use ethanol free premium and don't let gas sit too long. Thanks for the tip. May just grab a smaller Inverter to power the boiler.

Only issue is that those smaller inverter gens don't have the 240v twist lock outlet. Just the 120

NY_Rob

^ Costco doesn't stock that generator... it ships to you for $9.99 via UPS. Mine took one week to arrive.

240VAC is just the differential between two 120v legs running opposite phase. You can get an adapter cable on Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050PQ0UO/ref=psdc_6396124011_t3_B01MYCFX91) that provides 120VAC to both legs of your breaker panel from a 120VAC generator.
Only thing you can not run is true 240VAC appliances like A/C's, cloths dryers, etc. Basically, you initially turn off all your breakers, then turn on only the required breakers (lights, boiler, etc).

djc2232

Awesome. I was looking for those but couldn't find the right one.

I'm not having my dryer or central air untit run the the transfer box.

Now with this adapter would I have to have the contractor wire the transfer switch different or could I just plug and play then just flip on my boiler breaker?

Leonard

I believe no generators output anything even remotely close to a square wave, they are all a basic sine wave. It's inverters (cheap ones) that output ~ square waves, think inverters for car tailgating or computer UPS. Cheaper gens might have little distortion on them as in above pics, or spikes (not present on above pics).

Gens have limited power output ( 2, 4, 7, 10, 20 ....) kw, compared to ~ infinite power capability of the power company. So if you drop heavy loads on gen ( like start a large motor) voltage may sag. But that's only if you don't properly size gen to motor starting loads (surge). Example of a sag problem is if start an air handler or A/C compressor and voltage drops so much that relay contactors chatter. Read motor's LRA (locked rotor amps) for a hint at gen kw size you need.

I'm not 100% familiar with electronics in furnaces, but I'm guessing they wouldn't like sever under voltages like this either. If they used a micro-processor it might lock up, likely need to kill power to let it re-boot

In general I wouldn't want to feed semi -square waves in above pics to most electronic loads unless they used a switching power supply ( computers have them). Switching power supplies can run off most any garbage waveform since they 1-st rectify everything to feed a capacitor (makes it smooth DC), then transistors sip power off that clean cap voltage to switch a transformer at high frequency, output is then rectified back to clean DC for circuit loads.

NY_Rob .....Not surprising motors and transformers sing on that semi-square wave pulse, I've had same happen with instrument motors I've designed. Put a FFT frequency meter on it you'll see that in addition to the primary 60 hz fundamental, there will be significant energy present at many of the higher frequency harmonics (120hz, 180, 240, 300, 360....) . When motors/transformers sing what you are hearing is those higher frequencys exciting mechanical resonances inside them. Supposedly harmonics only make motors run hotter (iron losses in motor magnetics), they do no real work. However I believe transformers respond by also having bit higher output voltage, along with outputting those harmonics. However properly designed power supplies for the electronics should filter that out. Just depends how well they designed it.

Careful going overboard with a too large gen. With non-inverter gens as you double kw size you also double no-load fuel consumption. On 24/7 run over 1 week this can add up to a $$$ fuel bill. Gens typically run lightly loaded, sized for motor starting.

My 7kw gasoline gen, no-load is 0.4GPH, full load 1.3GPH.
So 1 week continuous run is .4x 24x 7= 67 gallons = $168 MINIMUM.

Real question is ..... is a Weil Mclain ECO 70 mod con boiler fussy about power quality on utility power. If yes then it's not designed right. and gen power will be no better. I don't know these furnaces , do the electronics fail a lot?

At very least since they have electronics I'ld put a surge protector on furnace as I do on my $$$ TV and computer.

NY_Rob

djc2232 said:

Awesome. I was looking for those but couldn't find the right one.



I'm not having my dryer or central air untit run the the transfer box.



Now with this adapter would I have to have the contractor wire the transfer switch different or could I just plug and play then just flip on my boiler breaker?

No, just wire the standard inlet box as usual- if you get a 240VAC generator down the line... just plug it in to the inlet box. If you want to use the small inverter generator- plug the adapter cable into the generator- then plug the other end in to your regular 4-prong generator cable that's plugged into the inlet box.
Just make sure you turn off all the breakers (most importantly the 240VAC breakers) before throwing the transfer switch to power your panel from the 120VAC generator.

The full solution that would let you use a 120VAC or 240VAC generator is shown at the bottom of the Amazon page below the adapter cable...

Jamie Hall

Perhaps it may be worth noting that most of the newer, smaller "generator" units for standby power use are actually AC/DC/AC units. That is, they generate an AC current at a variable speed (which is how they can be quiet and efficient) which is then rectified and reconverted to AC at a constant -- usually remarkably close to 60 hz for North American spec. units -- power. And how well they play with other electronics and motors does depend on how well they make that second conversion. The better quality ones do remarkably well. The less expensive ones don't. Same thing is true for the inverters used for "tailgating" or that sort of thing -- and for solar power installations.

An increasing problem -- particularly in areas with a fair amount of grid connected solar -- is increasingly lousy waveforms from the grid itself due to low budget solar installations.

A surge protector is not going to protect your electronics and motors from poor waveforms. Some high end uninterruptible power supplies will, since they always have the battery in the circuit and are doing AC/DC/AC conversions. Less expensive ones pass the AC -- however crummy it may be -- right through until it stops, then bring on the battery.

For truly sensitive electronics the proper solution is a power conditioner, which will filter out using a combination of capacitors and inductors everything except for the 60 hz fundamental. These are available in the aftermarket for older high fidelity sound equipment; for some high end newer equipment the necessary filtering is built into the power supply for the unit itself. Some older equipment, with really massive power transformers and filter capacitors can cope with the high harmonics as well, although at some cost in heating in the transformer and shortened life on the filter capacitors.

For motors the only real problem is that they must be derated if they are on crummy power. So far, this hasn't been that much of a problem on grid power; it may be on cheap inverter generator power. Usually a worse problem on cheap inverter power is the voltage sag when starting a motor which is close to the rated power of the inverter section (older true generators get around this from the flywheel action of the generator itself; there's a reason why the old units are heavy!). This can cause the motor to fail to come up to speed, or take too long; in both cases if the problem is severe enough the motor simply won't start. Someone mentioned well pumps as an example -- to give a hard numeric idea on that, I investigated a few, and a good example was a half horsepower single phase capacitor start/induction run submersible with a 3 ampere running current on 240 volts -- but a 13 ampere for up to 10 seconds demand for starting. Larger single phase motors will have similar characteristics (three phase motors are another beast altogether).

I sort of agree with @Leonard that a properly designed and built power supply for the computerized electronics in modern heating equipment could be designed and built to cope with crummy power. Sort of. Doing so, however, is only actually necessary if one knows that one is going to be using crummy power on a regular basis, and that that crummy power is sufficiently bad to cause trouble. The problem is, of course, that that costs money -- and these things tend to be built with cost in mind.

My own feeling is that in many cases the problems we see with home inverter "generators" for heating systems is that they may not have a true neutral and ground, or not be properly connected to provide that.

Leonard

Haven't followed inverter gens much, surprised they might not have a true neutral and ground. Seems that would be a SERIOUS electrical safty code violation, when connecting to a building.

On internal schematics for Onan's inverter gen the neutral lead is solidly attached to ground lead (and thus the gen metal frame).

I've heard on car "tailgating" inverters (not a gen) that run off car bat, the neutral is NOT at case potential. But something like 60 V above the case , which is connected to car battery negative lead.

Jamie Hall

Leonard said:

Haven't followed inverter gens much, surprised they might not have a true neutral and ground. Seems that would be a SERIOUS electrical safty code violation, when connecting to a building.

On internal schematics for Onan's inverter gen the neutral lead is solidly attached to ground lead (and thus the gen metal frame).

I've heard on car "tailgating" inverters (not a gen) that run off car bat, the neutral is NOT at case potential. But something like 60 V above the case , which is connected to car battery negative lead.

Indeed. The Onans are -- as they always have been -- very high quality machines.

But think how much cheaper it is to create what looks like 120 volt 60 hz AC by flipping the connections internally, giving you that 60 volts above the case ground on both sides! ZZaaap!

Bio

I got my self a Yamaha ef2400, I picked it over the smaller popular hondas, one because as well as the Yamaha ef2000 they come with a fuel gauge (important to know when to refuel), two because you can shut the fuel off and let the gas burn in the carburetor (this is a common problem with generators that won't start after sitting for months) and last unlike Honda, Yamaha has OHV engine which translates to a longer life
Only the Honda eu7000 has an OHV engine and is Fuel Injection which solves known carburetor issues (I believe it has a GX390 engine)

Check out Briggs & Stratton, they have a better price

Briggs & Stratton 30675A Q6500 Inverter Generator - 6500 Starting Watts QuietPower Series Portable Generator for Home Backup https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N9FAFIE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_vvORBbKKV90CS

Leonard

Onans are pretty pricy. Good news is they were so well build you can buy a used one for little less than what a new generic gen at box store costs. And the Onan will still outlast the new gen.

An Onan 7.5kw JB built in the 60's or 70's would cost ~ $8500 new today (applying CPI inflation), but can be hadused today for ~ $800 running, and with normal maintanace and oil changes is likely to out live us both.

The RV onans ~ 5BGE/6.5NHE cost ~ $4500 new, can be had for ~ $600 used today. Typically RV gens get very little use , couple hundred hours, good for ~ 8000 hours..... good deal.

djc2232

Leonard, the WM Eco boilers don't seem to be fussy with power. Granted we have pretty good utility power where we are, even being as rural as we are. I've only had it for just over a year and only one heating season. I don't think the electronics fail a lot. It's a really simple bare bones modcon boiler. Not too many parts or gadgets.

With that being said, it is a bit more electronically advanced than a standard atmospheric vented cast iron oil boiler. And more expensive. I would not want to fry my control board which is a 280 dollar part.

Placing a grounding rod near my genset location isn't an issue if need be. BUT connecting a generator to my house system should ground it through the house. I think.