Steam boiler went under water, insurance company said get bids to replace it.

Double D

This boiler was in a basement flood with water and sewage. The insurance adjuster said to replace it because it will now spill carbon monoxide in the house. I could easily get this one up and running but at this stage why would I bother on a boiler from 1971 when an insurance company is willing to replace. The only reasons I see for replacing would be it's no doubt oversized although I have not yet done any load calculation yet. As far as the near boiler piping goes, the only plus I see is they used both risers. After doing a rad survey I assume I'm going to also need to add in something for the in floor heat which is now heating the addition. Can anyone suggest what method would be best for adding the in floor to to load?

Jamie Hall

Wow. It was running at 7 psi! You'll need to look at all your vents and traps, too. Chances are they're also fried, wet or not.

And yes, if it went under water, anything electrical or fuel related which got wet must be replaced. Not optional. I see at least two pumps there, for instance, and maybe some powered valves. It's not really a question of carbon monoxide, but overall safety and performance and reliability.

You could rescue the old block and much of the plumbing, I suppose, but if the insurance folks are willing to pay to do it right, why not do it right?

Unless the in floor heated area is large and has a big load, it probably isn't necessary to add anything for it.

Zman

How is the radiant installed? In Slab? Under Floor?
How big of an area?
It looks like the radiant is running at very high temps, unless there is a mixing assembly out of the picture.
They would be well served to install a mixing device capable of outdoor reset.

Steamhead

Those boilers were built like tanks, but weren't very efficient. Stack temps were typically over 500°. As @Jamie Hall says,

Jamie Hall said:

but if the insurance folks are willing to pay to do it right, why not do it right?

This looks like a Dunham Vapor system. I bet it was running at such high pressures because the venting was restricted. Not sure what that thing is screwed into the top of the air trap, but it's certainly too small. Remove it and the bushing, and install a large vent such as a Gorton #2. Then watch how quickly it vents.

leonz

At least you can save the shell and tube heat exchanger which I will assume is what they are using for the radiant heat.

As long as you are there you can unbolt the shell and tube heat exchanger and check to see how much debris and build up is on the two tubes and then clean them as long as your installing new piping and a boiler there. I hope I am correct in assuming the tube is actually a U in the shell of the heat exchanger.

Speaking as a novice/home owner; is a set up like this a candidate for a drop header for dry steam??

DanHolohan

The hot-water zone isn't something you add to the total load. It's a game of subtraction. You're going to use the pick-up factor of the boiler for that portion of the total load. If you add that load to the steam load the boiler will be oversized when you're using only the steam side of the system. More about this here:

https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/how-to-run-a-hot-water-zone-off-a-steam-boiler/

JUGHNE

Will the insurance pay for removal of asbestos insulation also?

Jamie, that right hand control set at 7 PSI looks like a manual reset high pressure cut off. The left operating control look to be set as low as possible.....still the 7 is pretty high for the purpose, IMO.

Jamie Hall

JUGHNE said:

Will the insurance pay for removal of asbestos insulation also?

Jamie, that right hand control set at 7 PSI looks like a manual reset high pressure cut off. The left operating control look to be set as low as possible.....still the 7 is pretty high for the purpose, IMO.

Right you are. I just saw the 7 psi and kind of flipped out...

Double D

@Jamie Hall, There is a third pump which is not in the pictures. ( primary/secondary pumping). The owner claims the water didn't get as high as the pumps pictured. The 3rd pump is close to the floor joists. I still need to go back to see how much space the radiant is heating. For now the owner is getting bids just to replace the boiler that's there. There are several other issues with the system that need to be addressed but they are willing to do that after the new boiler is up and running. BTW they did say the system hammers like crazy but for the 24yrs. they've been there.They thought it was normal.

@Zman, The radiant is under the floor. I still need to measure the area. I saw no mixing valve or temperature probes controlling water temp. The owner said the radiant has a history of problems. It's better than when it was first installed but still not right. Issues with the steam system aren't helping. One of the crossovers has both the inlet and outlet connection on the dry return. You can see a pipe plug at the end of the main where it used to connect. The rads at the end of that main don't heat well. I wish I would have taken a picture of that. Maybe that was a fix for a failed open trap.

@Steamhead, I remember reading several times, you suggesting to remove the bushing and vent with a Gorton 2. Will there possibly be a need to use more? The owner mentioned the insurance company will help with the replacement but didn't say exactly how much. I'm sure the fact that it's from 1971 isn't going to help.

@leonz, Thanks for the tip. When I was looking the job over, I never thought of unbolting the shell to clear out debris. The existing boiler is between 2 cinder block walls with only enough space to get on one side. The boiler can't go back unless you move the components to the radiant. There is no room to come forward without choking the walkway to the rest of the basement. Flue venting will be another issue. I'm not the only one bidding the job but they did tell me who was there. They have used them in the past. Their bid will consist of a chop and swap, No More. Adding the cost of a drop header will knock me out for sure. I did tell them if they chose to go with the other contractor, I would still be willing to do the system corrections providing they at least pipe the boiler to the minimum manufacture specs.

@DanHolohan, I have read your publishing several times but mainly focused on the more economical approach which is at the bottom. Thanks for the help on the load calculation. I have your E.D.R. book so only on very rare occasions do I ever need help but I don't run into that many water loops. I wanted to make sure I got it right. The pages are falling out of my Lost Art book but the date on the bottom of page i says Tenth Printing, April 1999.

@JUGHNE, The insurance will not be paying anything for the asbestos removal. I would switch to them if they did. None of the contractors bidding wanted to deal with it and the owners figured now is a good time to address it.

Steamhead

Double D said:

@Steamhead, I remember reading several times, you suggesting to remove the bushing and vent with a Gorton 2. Will there possibly be a need to use more? The owner mentioned the insurance company will help with the replacement but didn't say exactly how much. I'm sure the fact that it's from 1971 isn't going to help.

Not in that location. The vent hole through the air trap is only so big. If more venting is needed you'll need another location.

DanHolohan

Thanks for reading me!

leonz

I am wondering if they have water trapped in a sagging pipe and that is why it has banged for so long and if that is a possible symptom of the banging?
You might mention that to them with regard to having a drop header with a smaller boiler to push dry steam to save them more $$$$$$

Double D

I never got a chance to see it run. It would take a little work getting the water out of the manifold and pilot tubing. From what I see there are several different things that would cause hammering. Colliding header, Long nipple on the Hartford loop. look at the direction the check valve is facing on the wet return. The pipe on the outlet of the check is the wet return from the end of one of the mains. If the swing arm is still in it, water is allowed to stack. Who knows what the actual operating pressure is. Although the pressurtrol is set for 1-1/2lbs, there's a possibility the pigtail could be plugged sending the pressure to the moon. The pigtail is also shared. The owner did say "the longer it runs the louder it gets". There are mains buried in one soffit for about 20' but from what I could see there didn't appear to be any sags.

Double D

The insurance man would also like a reason why a new boiler is needed for his report. The owner asked for an estimate to replace the boiler because the insurance man said it will now spill carbon monoxide since it went under water. I have rescued many boiler that have gone under water and put them back into service. I don't see why this one couldn't be cleaned up and put back into service. I wouldn't have anything more to say than Jamie did. I do have a list of reasons why it should be replaced but going under water isn't one of them.

Jamie Hall

I have a feeling that it may boil down -- for the bean counters at the insurance company -- to a matter of which is less expensive to them: replace the whole thing or replace all the widgets which have to be replaced. As I said before, the block is just a hunk of metal. Going underwater isn't going to have hurt it. But... after you add in the labour to change everything else out vs. just a whole new installation... not my call.

The carbon monoxide angle is pure BS. Pardon my French...

DanHolohan

Is this saltwater?

Double D

Rain & sewer water.The water didn't get as high as the pumps in the pics. And I agree with the carbon monoxide angle.

DanHolohan

Thanks

Steamhead

Here are a couple links- one from our own @RayWohlfarth :

https://www.pmmag.com/articles/100155-the-flooded-boiler-room

and this one from AHRI:

http://www.ahrinet.org/Homeowners/Improve-Safety/Floods-and-HVACR-Equipment

I think this says it all.

Double D

Interesting, the contractor after me said the near boiler piping is fine and remove the air eliminator trap, it doesn't do anything.

KC_Jones

Double D said:

Interesting, the contractor after me said the near boiler piping is fine and remove the air eliminator trap, it doesn't do anything.

I guess doing things correctly and reading manuals isn't the strong suit of that contractor. I'm sure his bid will be lower, and since money is the main criteria for insurance.....

Double D

17 cast radiators, 2 convectors 892sqft. total Installed radiation & a hot water loop heating a 600sqft addition with infloor. That's it! The boiler in place right now is a 750,000btu, 1875sqft. The other contractors bid replacing the boiler with the same size, one bid to use the next size larger (Peerless 211A-05S, 860,000btu, 2,083sqft. steam). None of them measured the radiation. This should be interesting when I tell them the size boiler I would recommend.

Double D

The owners paid for the asbestos removal. Today the removal company said the test came back all clear. They will take down the tents tomorrow morning. All has been removed except what is in soffits in the basement and inside walls.

Double D

This boiler is on it's way to being replaced. If I were to connect the heat exchanger to the new boiler, is there something else to use to control the heat for the water loop. I assume I will need to be using a three way tempering valve since it is Infloor. The owners said the contractor has been there numerous times but was never able to get it to work. Is this even the right type of control to use? Monday I will trace through their wiring but if you look at earlier pictures of the pressuretrol and manual reset, they have wires going in and out of them both. If those wires are connected to the aquastat terminals on the CPU, were they thinking those controls were aquastats?

ChrisJ

> @DanHolohan said:
> The hot-water zone isn't something you add to the total load. It's a game of subtraction. You're going to use the pick-up factor of the boiler for that portion of the total load. If you add that load to the steam load the boiler will be oversized when you're using only the steam side of the system. More about this here:
>
> https://heatinghelp.com/systems-help-center/how-to-run-a-hot-water-zone-off-a-steam-boiler/

I don't understand Dan.
If the system doesn't need that output to heat the steam system when the HW side is calling, why does it need it at all if there is no HW loop?

DanHolohan

@ChrisJ It needs it to bring all the steam piping up to 215 F., Chris. That's the pick-up factor of the steam boiler (1.33 typically). Once the pipes are at steam temperature the steam should be at the radiators and there's no need to emit additional Btu from the pipes.

ChrisJ

> @DanHolohan said:
> @ChrisJ It needs it to bring all the steam piping up to 215 F., Chris. That's the pick-up factor of the steam boiler (1.33 typically). Once the pipes are at steam temperature the steam should be at the radiators and there's no need to emit additional Btu from the pipes.

Dan,. Why are you awake so early?

Isn't it likely the HW loop will be running on startup?

DanHolohan

I'm an old guy, @ChrisJ. I don't want to miss anything. ;-)

The HW zone could be running on steam startup, sure. It depends on the thermostat settings. If the HW is running, it will slow the production of steam to that part of the system.

ChrisJ

> @DanHolohan said:
> I'm an old guy, @ChrisJ. I don't want to miss anything. ;-)
>
> The HW zone could be running on steam startup, sure. It depends on the thermostat settings. If the HW is running, it will slow the production of steam to that part of the system.

Old is relatively. You're not old.

DanHolohan

Thanks, pal.

Double D

Who says insurance isn't a beautiful thing. Hopefully it'll be up and running tomorrow minus the water hammer and uneven heating.

SeanBeans

Looking at a 64/08 brings me nightmares!
Looks awesome though

Double D

@SeanBeans I totally understand. I was sick about it when I saw yours. I was relieved after the hydro test.

Double D

That put an end to the water hammer they've experienced since they moved in 24yrs ago. Everyone who ever serviced it told them that's what steam systems do. If you don't want the hammering, change it to hot water. After a couple nights, the second floor had only one room that didn't heat well. It turned out to be a failed trap. The Infloor heating was done by others. I just reconnected it to the new boiler. I may need to do something about relocating the thermostat for the steam side of the system. While I was there insulating, I noticed the Infloor ran the whole time never satisfying the thermostat. Shortly after turning the steam side on, the Infloor zone satisfied. What appears to be happening, the heat from the Infloor is satisfying the thermostat for the steam side which is preventing it from running.

SuperJ

Wow, clean install.