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ASBESTOS CHANGE IN THE LAW, REALLY!

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Jackmartin
Jackmartin Member Posts: 196
I am not a little angry and shocked by the article my youngest son showed me from the internet news. I am not an American ,so I of course ,have no right to question the American Political scene, but I can comment on a matter of moral bankruptcy. The agency that controls hazardous material in your country has now said it will allow asbestos imported from Russia to be used in “ select” areas. I have spent a lot of money having asbestos taken off by licensed contractors, because given the age of the equipment we work on ,asbestos is almost always present. Now, the powers to be ,are going to allow new asbestos installation? This is morally and ethically heinous, they are willing to expose people to a product every medical association in the world has proven beyond any doubt causes death? I have watched big powerful men, shrink to cadavers from mesothelioma ,and the only thing they were guilty of ,was trying to make a honest living. This is to my way of thought ,a direct attack on the tradespeople of the Americas. Some person who has never worked an honest day in their life ,has decided their bank account and their bottom line on a spreadsheet is more important than you are! My wife is a medical professional and one of her specialties is end of life pain control. She is so much smarter than I am ,it is laughable, and she has seen too many mesothelioma cases. She has a message for all us tradespeople; stop smoking right now ,it has been her experience smoking and asbestos exposure almost always leads to this cancer. She explains it to a lay person like me in the following simplistic manner,smoking stresses your lungs to the point they can no longer treat invaders like asbestos fibres normally. She says ,healthy lungs can encapsulate the asbestos fibre and render it harmless in non chronic exposure, smoking short circuits this action and the asbestos fibre can bury itself into your lung tissue, she explained exactly how this happens but , this old HVAC mechanic cannot begin to understand the mechanism. She also told me to warn you about fibreglass ,especially the old long fibre variety, it is almost as cancer producing as asbestos, so for the sake of your family wear a freaking mask. I never thought ,given all the research condemning asbestos ,it would ever be allowed to be used again in North America, this is all about money and political favour. Is it any wonder, I hold politicians below the lowest entity I can think of? All the best and buy some masks and for heaven sakes and quit smoking! Jack, Western Canada
GordyGBartBenDplumber

Comments

  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    Welcome to Dystopia.
    Steve Minnich
    Gordy
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,902
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    @Jackmartin , can you post a link?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
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    kcopp
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,573
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    I am the last one to support what the president is doing or more importantly the congress's complete cowardliness in not keeping him in check.
    It should be noted that asbestos is not and has never been completely banned in the US. Canada which has historically been a leading supplier of asbestos to the US, only banned it completely this year.
    It would be great if someone would actually do research and print an article which is factual and complete.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    STEVEusaPASolid_Fuel_Manchapchap70
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,902
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    November 6, 2018- VOTE!
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
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    GBart
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,573
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    Steamhead said:

    November 6, 2018- VOTE!

    Agreed. let's just hope that the antiquated, unregulated and unsecure voting machines get a few of them recorded correctly.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    STEVEusaPA
  • chapchap70
    chapchap70 Member Posts: 139
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    At the end of the article, there is a link where one can get to this. At the bottom of that, there is a link to a 12 page pdf document.

    If I am understanding that document correctly, the EPA proposal seeks to correct a 1991 court decision which overturned a 1989 ban of some uses of asbestos. In other words, it makes asbestos harder to be produced in these cases. See the Federal Register pages 26926 and 26927.

    If my understanding is accurate, one can understand why a certain president decries news articles such as this as "fake news."
    Robert O'BrienCLamb
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,592
    edited August 2018
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    OK. I just remembered -again- why I didn't go to law school.


  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
    edited August 2018
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    Federal Register Notice on Proposed SNUR for Asbestos
    EPA is proposing a significant new use rule (SNUR) for certain uses of asbestos (including asbestos-containing goods) that would require manufacturers and importers to receive EPA approval before starting or resuming manufacturing, and importing or processing of asbestos. This review process would provide EPA with the opportunity to evaluate the intended use of asbestos and, when necessary, take action to prohibit or limit the use. In the absence of this proposed rule, the importing or processing of asbestos (including as part of an article) for the significant new uses proposed in this rule may begin at any time, without prior notice to EPA.

    Below is the Federal Register notice on the proposed asbestos SNUR. The proposed asbestos SNUR is available for public comment until August 10, 2018 in docket EPA-HQ-OPPT-2018-0159.

    https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OPPT-2018-0159-0001
    CLamb
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    What they are going to do is sneak in a SNUR, significant new use regulation to ALLOW new uses, we have to remember that the EPA is no longer a regulatory agency and many of them aren't, they are now controlled by the corporations who are looking for LEGAL ways of doing terrible and stupid and irresponsible things.

    It's so sad, we were so close to being a free and great nation with a high quality of life all around and well educated people, it's just all slowly gone to sheet since 1980. We had a few gains in the early 1900's with worker rights, women's rights, our real gains came after WWII and the GI Bill and then the people moved on DC from the 60's to 1980, the EPA and clean water and air acts were enacted, we were moving forward. Nixon took credit for the EPA but all he did was sign a Dem bill thinking it would quell the protesters and they would go home, he was wrong. So is this clown.
    Sal SantamauraTinmanBrewbeer
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    Seriously, if I saw this in a meme I wouldn't believe it, but....
    Fact Check Politics
    Did a Russian Asbestos Company Put Trump’s Face on Their Product? TRUE

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russian-asbestos-trump_face/
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    "But Trump has long expressed skepticism about its potential health effects after it is applied. In his 1997 book, “The Art of the Comeback,” he wrote that he believed that anti-asbestos efforts were “led by the mob.” In 2012, he tweeted that the World Trade Center would not have burned down had asbestos, which is known for fire-resistant properties, not been removed from the towers."

    SOURCE- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2018/07/11/approved-by-donald-trump-asbestos-sold-by-russian-company-is-branded-with-the-presidents-face/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5164ec02b4fc
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,592
    edited August 2018
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    I have conflicting views on asbestos. I love it and hate it.

    Even though I knew several who have suffered from asbestos related cancers, all in their late seventies or eighties, I am still impressed with the qualities of asbestos.

    My home has it. I believe is also in the sheet rock. The panels I see in the attic have "Fire Proof" labels on them. Asbestos doesn't bother me like it probably should. When I can identify it, I wear PPE and treat it carefully.

    It's a big deal when you need to remove it from a house or building, but have a 9-11 event where one tower was never abated and asbestos drifts for hundreds of miles or even a steam pipe rupture that spews asbestos everywhere for blocks and it is the least of any ones' worries.

    I wish their was an easy way to readily identify it. I can't help but think it is a very useful material when the hazards are identified and exposure dangers mitigated



  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    I’m not conflicted at all. I’ve lost freinds due in part to it.
    Steve Minnich
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,573
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    I am suspect of the EPA's intentions on this as well. It is unfortunate that the President can not explain his intentions on this (and other issues) using complete, well thought out sentences.

    Just blurting out "fake news" every time someone asks a question he does not like, makes one wonder if the poor fella has a case of Tourret syndrome.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    You've set your hopes incredibly high, Carl. Word salad is the best you'll ever get from this guy.
    Steve Minnich
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,573
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    Salad is a nice description. Pile is what I was thinking :D
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 288
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    GBart said:

    What they are going to do is sneak in a SNUR, significant new use regulation to ALLOW new uses, we have to remember that the EPA is no longer a regulatory agency and many of them aren't, they are now controlled by the corporations who are looking for LEGAL ways of doing terrible and stupid and irresponsible things.

    What is sneaky about it? It has been published in the Federal Register and the EPA issued a press release about it. Whether or not it is "stupid and irresponsible" depends on the risks to be evaluated--which the document sets forth. The real question is are these criteria reasonable or not?
  • Sal Santamaura
    Sal Santamaura Member Posts: 529
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    CLamb said:

    ...The real question is are these criteria reasonable or not?

    That question was answered decades ago by real scientists, not those running what's currently the Environmental Depredation Agency.

    1Matthias
  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 516
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    A couple of asbestos stories but first.
    In the 70's favorite wife & I decided we wanted to live aboard a yacht and go sailing, landed a job with a famous yacht designer and builder, to learn boat building. We built 35 ft sailboats using fiberglass hulls and decks with wooden interiors, in those days we used asbestos fibers as filler for the resin so that we could make fillets and fill gaps between various members, we used to take hands full of asbestos powder and toss it into buckets of resin and mix it in with a paint mixer on an electric drill. I knew personally one yacht builder who died young. In order not to be too long winded will tell the two tales in next post.

  • nibs
    nibs Member Posts: 516
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    So in the '80's as project manager was involved in some of the cities fire stations. We discovered that the city knew about asbestos in Fire Station 1, but had not mentioned it in the tender docs. Each shift at Station 1 had about 20 men. As we were going through the Haz Mat steps to remove the Asbstos, the night shift guys were cooking their breakfasts, the day shift guys showed up wearing haz mat protection suits, caused quite a stir.
    In another city, was managing a school renovation of a very old school and lo an behold there was asbestos that the school district knew about. Not mentioned in the tender docs (is there a pattern here)
    Went onsite and one of the asbestos abatement guys had made a hole in the center of his hepa dust mask so he could insert a cigarette while he worked.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,902
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    .........I am not an American ,so I of course ,have no right to question the American Political scene..........

    Much of the world is doing that now, and rightly so.

    I was in Vancouver a few months ago with The Lovely Naoko, and since the people she knew there knew I was visiting from the States, they all wondered "what were you thinking?". I realized then how much our Canadian neighbors value our countries' relationship, and were justifiably concerned.

    I of course replied that "that man did not, and will not ever, get my vote". I had plenty of justification for this before, but this asbestos thing puts it way over the top.

    I'll say it again: Get out and vote on November 6. That's the only way to stop this insanity. Vote everyone out who would endanger their fellow Americans like that.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
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    Zmanethicalpaul
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,592
    edited August 2018
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    just received word that acquaintance is at the end of his battle with asbestos related cancer. He was a career naval jet mechanic who worked on F-14's that used asbestos lined pivot drums for their variable sweep wings and wheel brakes.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    Thought politics were left at the door here, apparently not. Sigh.
    CLamb
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,902
    edited August 2018
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    Bob Bona said:

    Thought politics were left at the door here, apparently not. Sigh.

    When all is said and done, this is related to the industry we're all part of. Unfortunately, stuff like this affects us all. I think most of us would rather not return to those days where people routinely died horrible deaths from asbestosis, eh? So it's up to us to make our wishes known, and the more, the merrier.

    Much the same thing is happening in the coal industry regarding Black Lung. This disease is on the rise because of idiotic deregulation. This should be a wake-up call to all of us.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,902
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    SlamDunk said:

    just received word that acquaintance is at the end of his battle with asbestos related cancer. He was a career naval jet mechanic who worked on F-14's that used asbestos lined pivot drums for their variable sweep wings and wheel brakes.

    Sorry to hear this- no one deserves this fate.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • chapchap70
    chapchap70 Member Posts: 139
    edited August 2018
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    It seems that the article succeeded in getting people in an uproar over something that is exactly opposite of true. Was that by design? Was the release of the article right before special elections strategically planned or just a coincidence? Judge all that for yourselves. My guess is the person who wrote the article never read the actual source document, did not understand it, or deliberately lied about it.

    As it is now, it seems a company can import asbestos and manufacture certain items with asbestos in it without notifying anyone. This rule makes it harder, not easier to use asbestos in these products. An article stating that the EPA is attempting to close a loophole by making companies get approval from the EPA does not make the president look bad so one would have to search far and wide to find it. (Edited this paragraph)

    The following is taken from the EPA paper GBart and I referenced in previous posts. The bold emphasis is mine.


    Federal Register / Vol. 83, No. 112 / Monday, June 11, 2018 / Proposed Rules
    VI. Applicability of Rule to Uses
    Occurring Before Effective Date of the
    Final Rule
    EPA designates June 1, 2018 (the date
    of web posting of this proposed rule) as
    the cutoff date for determining whether
    the new use is ongoing. The objective of
    EPA’s approach is to ensure that a
    person cannot defeat a SNUR by
    initiating a significant new use before
    the effective date of the final rule.
    In
    developing this proposed rule, EPA has
    recognized that, given EPA’s general
    practice of posting proposed and final
    SNURs on its website a week or more
    in advance of Federal Register
    publication, this objective could be
    thwarted even before that publication.
    Persons who begin commercial
    manufacturing (including importing) or
    processing of the chemical substance (to
    include importing or processing articles
    and components thereof containing the
    chemical substance) for a significant
    new use identified as of June 1, 2018
    would have to cease any such activity
    upon the effective date of the final rule.
    To resume their activities, these persons
    would have to first comply with all
    applicable SNUR notification
    requirements and wait until all TSCA
    prerequisites for the commencement of
    manufacturing (including importing) or
    processing have been satisfied (see
    Federal Register documents of April 24,
    1990 (55 FR 17376) (FRL–3658–5) and
    November 28, 2016 (81 FR 85472) (FRL–
    9945–53) for additional information).
    CLamb
  • chapchap70
    chapchap70 Member Posts: 139
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    GBart said:

    Federal Register Notice on Proposed SNUR for Asbestos
    EPA is proposing a significant new use rule (SNUR) for certain uses of asbestos (including asbestos-containing goods) that would require manufacturers and importers to receive EPA approval before starting or resuming manufacturing, and importing or processing of asbestos. This review process would provide EPA with the opportunity to evaluate the intended use of asbestos and, when necessary, take action to prohibit or limit the use. In the absence of this proposed rule, the importing or processing of asbestos (including as part of an article) for the significant new uses proposed in this rule may begin at any time, without prior notice to EPA.

    Below is the Federal Register notice on the proposed asbestos SNUR. The proposed asbestos SNUR is available for public comment until August 10, 2018 in docket EPA-HQ-OPPT-2018-0159.

    https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=EPA-HQ-OPPT-2018-0159-0001

    The bold emphasis is mine. This is an attempt to prevent sneaking stuff in. According to the EPA, it is legal now because of the overturning of a 1989 ban in 1991 for items the EPA listed. (Table B in the Federal register document. Link above this paragraph) See my first post in this thread.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,902
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    Yeah, but why are they allowing importing and processing of asbestos now? The way it's written implies that these activities had been stopped, which is what I and many others assumed had been done years ago- no more asbestos, period.

    Why now?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • CLamb
    CLamb Member Posts: 288
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    Steamhead said:

    Yeah, but why are they allowing importing and processing of asbestos now? The way it's written implies that these activities had been stopped, which is what I and many others assumed had been done years ago- no more asbestos, period.

    Mostly because Congress and the courts don't allow asbestos to be banned entirely. These particular activities have been voluntarily stopped. Under the law, however, these particular products are considering "Significant New Uses" and may be re-started after EPA approval. The EPA is therefore required to establish criteria for a risk assessment should such an application ever be made. This website https://www.asbestos.com/legislation/ban/ has some pretty good information on the history of asbestos regulation in the USA.

    chapchap70
  • SlamDunk
    SlamDunk Member Posts: 1,592
    edited August 2018
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    Like I said, now I know why I didnt go to law school. But I do read and What I read tells me lawyers and policy makers dont agree on this. Steamhead and the rest of us should be concerned:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/climate/epa-asbestos-rule.html
  • chapchap70
    chapchap70 Member Posts: 139
    edited August 2018
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    Steamhead said:

    Yeah, but why are they allowing importing and processing of asbestos now? The way it's written implies that these activities had been stopped, which is what I and many others assumed had been done years ago- no more asbestos, period.

    Why now?

    I did not know that it was legal here to manufacture stuff with asbestos in it until I read Zman's earlier post and confirmed it with the EPA documents plus the link that CLamb contributed.

    Back to the title in the original link contributed by Stephen Minnich. (It looks like the original poster did a hit and run.) Why write a story about the critics? What ever happened to "just the facts?" Are their claims true or is this article an editorial disguised as a news story by using activist organizations the writer agrees with as cover?

    The first critic is the
    Environmental Working Group. Why trumpet this group? Has their record been reliable in the past?

    Reliability of the Environmental Working Group.


    The last critic is Chelsea Clinton. She has no ax to grind, right? :o

    It is very hard to glean the truth from the media. All their reporting seems to accomplish is to divide us among ourselves. Why?
    CLamb