Big system stop leak

Mark Eatherton

Greetings Wallies and Allies (pronounced all-eze)

I've decided to end my hydronic career at the same place I'd started it, that being Advanced Hydronics, Inc. here in Denver. It's great being back in the saddle with such a great group of people, from the top to the bottom.

My apologies for being out of touch for so long. My work load here is ENORMOUS. Tom Olds (owner) asked me to seek experience as it pertains to the use of stop leak in a large closed loop hydronic system. System contains approximately 2,000 gallons. We will be installing a meter on it this week to gage quantity of water being lost over time, but in advance of that information, Tom wanted to see if anyone has had experience trying to locate this leak and plug it with a stop leak, like Base Hit or something like that.

Building is 140' tall, and we've determined that the leak is somewhere on the 13th floor, because the pressure holds at 55 PSI with the make up off. We've looked everywhere that we can look, and are now considering drastic actions to eliminate the leak.

Got experience? If the leak is large enough, we might be able to latch onto a riser and use Doppler leak detection, but if it is too small, won't be able to hear it with Doppler unit. Building is reinforced concrete and steel, so might be difficult getting transponders to talk to the mater Doppler unit.

Thanks in advance for any information/advice you can give.

ME

jumper

First place to look is highest point where original installer may have put an automatic vent. Sometimes in elevator shack or other roof top structure.

No fun to refill 2000 gallons but next step is to drain and try smoke bomb.

hot_rod

Steel, copper, pex?

Harvey Ramer

Does the system have fancoils? If so, I would be checking the condensate drains. Might be a leaking coil somewhere. The water going down the drain could easily escape attention.

EBEBRATT-Ed

probably off topic but I worked on an ice rink chilled water system that had a leak under the concrete. Glycol was coming up through the slab. Of course the leak could be anywhere and traveled until if found a small crack in the concrete to work its way up through. They found a product which I believe is called "rink seal" apparently quite expensive but it did the job and saved cutting up the concrete. I didn't install the stuff so that's all I know which isn't much

Zman

Harvey Ramer said:

Does the system have fancoils? If so, I would be checking the condensate drains. Might be a leaking coil somewhere. The water going down the drain could easily escape attention.

This is what I was thinking.
I am also skeptical of Doppler for this application.
What about helium?

hot_rod

I don't think the system capacity matters other than cost and amount of the leak stop used. I'd use any leak stop as a last recourse.

This product was first imported by Heatway back in the early rubber tube days. Obvious to say it sometimes worked depending on the hole size and how many. I had a one in three success rate, still have some if you want a sample.

It could indeed fix a puncture from a rake, but not rubber tube that became brittle and broke apart.

It looks a lot like Elmers glue in the container. I'd check compatibility if indirect tanks or DHW is involved via boiler water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI_EbUfaFDA

nicholas bonham-carter

Can you put a scent into the water, and smell around the suspected areas?
Maybe pressurizing the system with air from the top would cause the leaking area to whistle.—NBC

ScottSecor

More questions than answers for me at this point.
1. What is the building used for (apartments, offices, something else?
2. Is there access to any of the piping on the 13th floor (chase, mechanical room, etc)?
3. Can you visually inspect the heat emitters and what are they (coils, hwbb, flat panel, etc)?
4. Could you cut access holes in a few locations to visually inspect the mains (are the walls sheetrock or concrete or something else)?
5. Does the system contain anti-freeze of some sort?

I agree with Hot Rod, a 'stop leak' would be my last choice.

Mark Eatherton

Based on residual pressure with make up off, water level is two floors below top of building, but I agree with what you say.
Thanks!

ME

jumper said:

First place to look is highest point where original installer may have put an automatic vent. Sometimes in elevator shack or other roof top structure.

No fun to refill 2000 gallons but next step is to drain and try smoke bomb.

Mark Eatherton

hot rod said:

Steel, copper, pex?

Steel and copper. Built in 1970.

ME

Mark Eatherton

Harvey Ramer said:

Does the system have fancoils? If so, I would be checking the condensate drains. Might be a leaking coil somewhere. The water going down the drain could easily escape attention.

Yes, convectors in the hallways. BBR in the residences. No FCU's on upper floors, only in entrance ways. Will look into whether or not there are drains, but good point Harv.

Thanks

ME

GBart

Harvey Ramer said:

Does the system have fancoils? If so, I would be checking the condensate drains. Might be a leaking coil somewhere. The water going down the drain could easily escape attention.

Exactly what I was going to rec'd, it has to be going down a drain, check the janitor closets, many times they ran condensate drains to the mop sinks, etc, see if any are flowing.

Good luck, phasers on stun.

Mark Eatherton

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Can you put a scent into the water, and smell around the suspected areas?
Maybe pressurizing the system with air from the top would cause the leaking area to whistle.—NBC

Great point Nick. We do have access to CO gas. Might inject that and go around with a CO detector.

Thanks

ME

hot_rod

peppermint oil a little goes a long way

Mark Eatherton

ScottSecor said:

More questions than answers for me at this point.
1. What is the building used for (apartments, offices, something else?
2. Is there access to any of the piping on the 13th floor (chase, mechanical room, etc)?
3. Can you visually inspect the heat emitters and what are they (coils, hwbb, flat panel, etc)?
4. Could you cut access holes in a few locations to visually inspect the mains (are the walls sheetrock or concrete or something else)?
5. Does the system contain anti-freeze of some sort?

I agree with Hot Rod, a 'stop leak' would be my last choice.

We all agree. Leak stop is a last ditch efforts and probably brings WAY too much residual baggage to the game.

1. MFD, seniors and disabled.
2. No access to distribution piping, only BBR's in rooms and cabinet heaters in halls.
3. HWBB in rooms, gravity coil units (need to confirm) in halls. System has a separate air cooling system serving the halls, so my assumption is the coils do heating only, and I suspect they are natural convection as opposed to forced convection.
4. May have to resort to destructive investigations. Found some indications of water damage in the 12th and 13th floors. Will begin there. Old abandoned hose cabinets in hall ways.
5. Straight water with corrosion inhibitors.

Thanks for the input Scott.

ME

ScottSecor

Five bucks says there are wet walls or damp floors in at least one apartment. See it often with this type of tennant. They say nothing to the maintenance staff while we scratch our heads down in the boiler room trying to figure out what's going on. I suspect they don't want to be a bother or are fearful of having to move to another apartment/room. My suggestion, start by visiting each apartment and if at all possible bring a moisture meter and a flashlight with you.

On a side note, these same type of residents will tell the maintenance department, the person the that runs the facility, the mayor and perhaps the governor that the hwbb is only lukewarm with these new boilers. Yes there apartments are still 75 degrees throughout the heating season, but they want that hwbb smokin or they think there cold. Ask me how I know...

mars_6

Hey Mark, im sure the solution will be foth coming. With you looking at it this is inevitable. Mark I am glad you are back at AHI, there are times I wished I had not left but then I would not be here. Please tell Tom I am remiss in not bieng more communicative with him to this point, and your self as well. Wishing you both well. Thank you so very much. matt

GroundUp

Is there means of isolating the 13th floor from the risers to test it solely? We had a similar issue a couple years back that we ended up locating by cutting in valves off the main risers, at which point the whole floor held 100 PSI over the weekend which was very confusing. This narrowed it down to the risers located in a masonry chase, which an access door was cut into and scaffold built to reach the weld-o-lets off the risers. Turned out that one of the welds had a pretty vicious porosity hole which had been leaking for what I can only assume was since 1965 when the building was built, and getting worse with time. The water would run out of the hole and run down the 12" riser inside the insulation jacket, and evaporate roughly 3 floors down due to the high SWT in the building. Went on for 50 years and nobody ever complained of moisture because it was evaporating. My vote is peppermint oil and an isolation of the 13th floor

John Abbott

Water obeys the law of gravity and molecular attraction and I would be looking at risers below the 13th and 12th floors where accessable or borescope camera will fit through a relatively small hole to look for mineral residue on risers if you find residue work your way up.Peppermint oil is effective but I have no experience on a scale as large as this. There are some amazingly effective leak stop products out there today but I consider them a stopgap measure and last resort.Here in the East FW Webb sells some incredibly good modern products for leak stop I was amazed a few years ago with the results.
John

RapidRoy

How about using an infrared camera? I've used it to locate ductwork or pipes in walls. Can't see them but the heat signature would be there.

ScottSecor

Mark, are there any updates?

ecletrical

> @Mark Eatherton said:
> Greetings Wallies and Allies (pronounced all-eze)
>
> I've decided to end my hydronic career at the same place I'd started it, that being Advanced Hydronics, Inc. here in Denver. It's great being back in the saddle with such a great group of people, from the top to the bottom.
>
> My apologies for being out of touch for so long. My work load here is ENORMOUS. Tom Olds (owner) asked me to seek experience as it pertains to the use of stop leak in a large closed loop hydronic system. System contains approximately 2,000 gallons. We will be installing a meter on it this week to gage quantity of water being lost over time, but in advance of that information, Tom wanted to see if anyone has had experience trying to locate this leak and plug it with a stop leak, like Base Hit or something like that.
>
> Building is 140' tall, and we've determined that the leak is somewhere on the 13th floor, because the pressure holds at 55 PSI with the make up off. We've looked everywhere that we can look, and are now considering drastic actions to eliminate the leak.
>
> Got experience? If the leak is large enough, we might be able to latch onto a riser and use Doppler leak detection, but if it is too small, won't be able to hear it with Doppler unit. Building is reinforced concrete and steel, so might be difficult getting transponders to talk to the mater Doppler unit.
>
> Thanks in advance for any information/advice you can give.
>
> ME

ecletrical

attach a garden hose somewhere below the leak suspected
let the garden hose fill
Open the system to the air and let it drain down to the leak

Slowly lower the garden hose to water comes out of it, that’s the level of the leak

RayH

Increase the pressure in the boiler as much as possible without setting off the relief valve. It might make it easier to find the leak using an ultrasonic leak detector.

GBart

There once was an HVAC contractor trying to find a leak in a large system, he eventually found a janitor had tapped into a heating line to fill his buckets for cleaning.

GBart

“How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”
- Sherlock Holmes

BumpyHed

Building is 140 feet Tall and you are holding pressure at thirteenth floor ? There should only be one floor left above you ?

Mark Eatherton

We found that a resident on the top floor was using a boiler drain on the heating system to water his "plants". I wonder what corrosion inhibitors taste like on Cannabis... He moved out and water loss stopped. He didn't need any heat due to grow lamps.

Larry Weingarten

Hi @Mark Eatherton , Good to see you back! It's looking like that what @GBart ((and Sherlock) said was the right direction. Hope you're no longer as swamped with work!. Breathing is good periodically

Yours, Larry

kcopp

As @DanHolohan says...."you cant make this stuff up...."

DanHolohan

  

JohnNY

I've had two separate instances of porters using the hose spigots on the bottom of steam boilers to wash down the sidewalk and cellar floor. Water meters on the feeders were registering hundreds of gallons monthly. The first one took me weeks to figure out. The second one I walked and asked the porter if the water was hot or cold when he hooks his hose up to the valve. He said it was "Never cold. Usually warm. But sometimes extremely hot".
It's all in the way you ask the question.

But, yeah. No. You can't make it up.

DanHolohan

I've seen them melt snow outside the boiler room with the boiler water. "What do you mean that's not good? We've been doing this for years."

JohnNY

DanHolohan said:

I've seen them melt snow outside the boiler room with the boiler water. "What do you mean that's not good? We've been doing this for years."

Love it!

PC7060

JohnNY said:

I've had two separate instances of porters using the hose spigots on the bottom of steam boilers to wash down the sidewalk and cellar floor.

So funny, I experienced a similar case on a much smaller scale during a recent renovation. The guy who was cutting up a floor slab hooked his wetsaw supply hose to the drain connection coming off the boiler make up line. The make off supply was shut off so the entire hydronic system (140 gallons) just drained down though his saw while he was cutting. The guy on the saw came to me after 45 minutes or so wondering why the water shut off. Fortunately the boiler had been shutdown for the renovations but everyone involved felt pretty silly! I also learned to pay more attention to what the trades were up to while onsite.

retiredguy

You guys all come up with weird and screwy things that people do with and to their boilers that are not normal. Here's a great one that was potentially dangerous to the people in the building.

Without going into too much detail there was once a school that would mix the heating boiler water (cast iron boilers) when the too small domestic boiler would not keep up with demand. They told me that it worked well with unlimited hot water. I told them that that was dangerous and they just laughed. I saw so many scary things during my 40+ years in the heating field.

This may be off topic, but I would like to see a section with scary stories that everyone has seen over there careers like the 1 job that I was sent to to check out. A high pressure steam boiler, 150psi, with a single gas valve that would not close. when the boiler was supposed to shut down the operating engineer would shut off the main gas valve.

WMno57

Read the linked story below in the news today and thought of this thread. Somewhat relevant as it involves cannabis, apartments, indoor air quality, and combustion byproducts.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/west/san-francisco-bans-smoking-inside-apartments-pot-smoking-ok/