Another Steam System Bites the Dust

ChrisJ

I'm still having trouble imagining my 3 ton ECM blower somehow producing 3,000 btu/h worth of heat.

Doesn't seem realistic.
Not to mention, all of those minisplits have blower motors as well so they still have the same issue sans duct pressure losses which aren't that bad with proper duct work.

Mini splits do not have duct losses, but they do have lineset losses since the expansion device is outside.

I decided to install a ducted system in my home mainly because I didn't want to deal with trying to route linesets to 6+ heads all over my house. I was able to hide and much better route a ducted system in my case.

JUGHNE

ChrisJ, if your 3 ton AC could do heat pump, then it has the potential for 36,000 BTUH, approximately.
Still air blowing on your head.

ChrisJ

> @JUGHNE said:
> ChrisJ, if your 3 ton AC could do heat pump, then it has the potential for 36,000 BTUH, approximately.
> Still air blowing on your head.

This is true.

BobC

I'm not fond of having the wall wart but the time came when I couldn't move the 14,000 BTU window shaker my self AND all my friends were in worse shape than me. So it sits above my computer desk where I can't see it unless I purposely look up at it.

Bob

PMJ

Since AC has become a necessity air handling is now required. Once you are handling the air anyway you can cool or heat it. Economically it does make sense to have one system do both.

Pretty much anyone I have talked to who has experienced steam heat says they prefer it from a comfort standpoint. Owners of steam heated homes have been the ones installing hi velocity AC. They prefer the steam AND a complete tearout while you are living there isn't really possible anyway. But at a change of ownership keeping the steam is getting tougher quickly. Selling a home to younger buyers with two systems to maintain - one of which is really "old" is becoming a very tough sell. Not surprisingly owners who have put a lot of money into hi velocity AC are finding that very little of that money is coming back in a sale. Nor is any of the money put into a kitchen or bath more than 10-15 years old. More and more I am seeing people just skipping the hassle and dumping their house to a rehabber when it is time to leave - like this latest one. It is increasingly likely I will be doing the same eventually. It never occurred to me when I bought the place that I would be the one actually paying to rip the steam out. Never figured we would reach a place where a steam system actually reduced the value of the place. Things are always changing...and not always for the better.

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

Since AC has become a necessity air handling is now required. Once you are handling the air anyway you can cool or heat it. Economically it does make sense to have one system do both.

Pretty much anyone I have talked to who has experienced steam heat says they prefer it from a comfort standpoint. Owners of steam heated homes have been the ones installing hi velocity AC. They prefer the steam AND a complete tearout while you are living there isn't really possible anyway. But at a change of ownership keeping the steam is getting tougher quickly. Selling a home to younger buyers with two systems to maintain - one of which is really "old" is becoming a very tough sell. Not surprisingly owners who have put a lot of money into hi velocity AC are finding that very little of that money is coming back in a sale. Nor is any of the money put into a kitchen or bath more than 10-15 years old. More and more I am seeing people just skipping the hassle and dumping their house to a rehabber when it is time to leave - like this latest one. It is increasingly likely I will be doing the same eventually. It never occurred to me when I bought the place that I would be the one actually paying to rip the steam out. Never figured we would reach a place where a steam system actually reduced the value of the place. Things are always changing...and not always for the better.

Who is to say what's better and what's not?
Better for who, or what?

Steamhead

PMJ said:

Since AC has become a necessity air handling is now required. Once you are handling the air anyway you can cool or heat it. Economically it does make sense to have one system do both.

Pretty much anyone I have talked to who has experienced steam heat says they prefer it from a comfort standpoint. Owners of steam heated homes have been the ones installing hi velocity AC. They prefer the steam AND a complete tearout while you are living there isn't really possible anyway. But at a change of ownership keeping the steam is getting tougher quickly. Selling a home to younger buyers with two systems to maintain - one of which is really "old" is becoming a very tough sell. Not surprisingly owners who have put a lot of money into hi velocity AC are finding that very little of that money is coming back in a sale. Nor is any of the money put into a kitchen or bath more than 10-15 years old. More and more I am seeing people just skipping the hassle and dumping their house to a rehabber when it is time to leave - like this latest one. It is increasingly likely I will be doing the same eventually. It never occurred to me when I bought the place that I would be the one actually paying to rip the steam out. Never figured we would reach a place where a steam system actually reduced the value of the place. Things are always changing...and not always for the better.

Unfortunately, trying to heat and cool with the same system means it's wrong at least half the year. Two systems make sense on that basis.

And when the next recession hits, buyers won't have the money for tear-outs.

PMJ

@Steamhead ,

A surprising number of big steam heated homes around me still don't have central AC. New owners demand it so at these ownership changes a whole new system is going in recession or no. The argument is that you might as well do both in that new system and plus you then get zoned heat and cool with multiple units in these big houses. Plus they argue it is more efficient than steam which I know is not true but that is the prevailing wisdom in the market place. The real estate people and the contractors doing this kind of work all say it.

I'm not promoting this. I just am observing it happening with rapidly increasing frequency. There are so many steam systems still out there that the few who actually know how to work with them won't be out of work any time soon. But clearly unless something big changes residential steam will be totally gone.

I didn't follow your wrong half the year comment. Are you saying homes built with forced air heat/cool originally are wrong half the year too?

ChrisJ

PMJ said:

@Steamhead ,

A surprising number of big steam heated homes around me still don't have central AC. New owners demand it so at these ownership changes a whole new system is going in recession or no. The argument is that you might as well do both in that new system and plus you then get zoned heat and cool with multiple units in these big houses. Plus they argue it is more efficient than steam which I know is not true but that is the prevailing wisdom in the market place. The real estate people and the contractors doing this kind of work all say it.

I'm not promoting this. I just am observing it happening with rapidly increasing frequency. There are so many steam systems still out there that the few who actually know how to work with them won't be out of work any time soon. But clearly unless something big changes residential steam will be totally gone.

I didn't follow your wrong half the year comment. Are you saying homes built with forced air heat/cool originally are wrong half the year too?

I don't follow it either.
What about buildings with radiant heating and cooling. Are those wrong half the year?

If Frank is talking about return / supply placement, there are very good compromises that can be made.

Just like venting and boiler sizing, duct design and placement is critical.

Steamhead

@PMJ and @ChrisJ , we're not talking ideal setup here. Sure it might be possible, but most forced-air heat/cool setups are installed as cheaply as possible, with no regard to balancing and overall comfort as long as the thing runs when you turn it on.

This is especially true in homes built this way originally. Do you really think the builder is going to spend any more money than the bare minimum? He doesn't have to live with the results, so he hires whoever offers a rock-bottom price, gets his money when the house sells, and the buyer is stuck with it.

This is one reason building codes now require minimum levels of insulation. Builders won't spend the money on insulation unless the law says they have to.

Ironman

^ ^ ^ ^
This!

Ironman

Almost Everyone in the Forced Air business is trying to be the Walmart of HVAC.

PMJ

Steamhead said:

@PMJ and @ChrisJ , we're not talking ideal setup here. Sure it might be possible, but most forced-air heat/cool setups are installed as cheaply as possible, with no regard to balancing and overall comfort as long as the thing runs when you turn it on.

This is especially true in homes built this way originally. Do you really think the builder is going to spend any more money than the bare minimum? He doesn't have to live with the results, so he hires whoever offers a rock-bottom price, gets his money when the house sells, and the buyer is stuck with it.

This is one reason building codes now require minimum levels of insulation. Builders won't spend the money on insulation unless the law says they have to.

I don't disagree with this but quality of workmanship is a different subject. I suppose you would duct differently for optimum performance if only doing one or the other. I agree it won't be optimum.

Most if not everyone agrees that the steam heat result is best. But the AC requirement has clearly risen to higher priority in the market and the market will not support two systems. The buyers are turning down those and heavily favoring the dual forced air system.

I will not part with my steam and dread the day if it comes that I must live out my time in scorched air.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I work with a sheetmetal contractor/fabricator on a regular basis for my commercial jobs. The price of properly sized and layed out ductwork is arguably more than a water-based system with pex, depending on emitters.

True tradesmen/women are few and far between who have mastered their craft and their work shows it. I just think of all of Dan's articles about the dead men gone, but their work remains and tells their story.

ChrisJ

Steamhead said:

@PMJ and @ChrisJ , we're not talking ideal setup here. Sure it might be possible, but most forced-air heat/cool setups are installed as cheaply as possible, with no regard to balancing and overall comfort as long as the thing runs when you turn it on.

This is especially true in homes built this way originally. Do you really think the builder is going to spend any more money than the bare minimum? He doesn't have to live with the results, so he hires whoever offers a rock-bottom price, gets his money when the house sells, and the buyer is stuck with it.

This is one reason building codes now require minimum levels of insulation. Builders won't spend the money on insulation unless the law says they have to.

While this may be true, isn't the quality of new construction an entirely separate subject from the way the space is conditioned? Wouldn't most builders do the same thing regardless of the system chosen?

And don't say there aren't bottom of the pile hydronic guys. We see their steam boiler installations all the time on here.


Great.............now someone's going to come here and think I like forced air.

Look what you guys did.