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Do they teach reading in trade school

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Jackmartin
Jackmartin Member Posts: 196
I am a person who never backstabs another tradesman because ;hopefully, when all is said and done ,we have all been through hell and back considering what we do for a living. The thing that annoys me the most is some clown who knows nothing, because he failed reading in grade school or much more sinister ,I am a Journeyman therefore I have nothing else to learn. I am currently in my 43 year in the HVAC business and for whatever reason I still seem to learn something every day? I asked the “ steam expert” a manufacteurers rep, the other day “ Why not try the idea from Getting the Most Out if Single Pipe Steam” he had never heard of it, then I told him the same idea is in Dan’s book The Lost Art , I might as well have been discussing string theory. However, it did not stop him from bad mouthing an old steamfitters work that had worked for over a 100 years? I write this to every genius who knows everything ,Do you think your work will last a 100 years and still be giving the customer reliable heat? I didn’t think so. Thanks for listening to an old guy vent. All the best from Canada, Jack. Oh ,as one more comment ,give yourself a treat and get Jacob Myron’s book, super interesting ,and while not as entertaining as Dan’s books still a great read. Cheers. Jack
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Comments

  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,525
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    Jake Myron is one of the best steam men I've ever known. For many years, he was the lead guy for steam at the NYC Housing Authority. He could fix the things that stumped the engineers. We had a lot of good times together and I learned much from him. He's enjoying his retirement in Florida.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Jack,
    You bring up a great point. The trades seem to attract folks that did not excel in the conventional education model. I have heard statistics of dyslexia and other learning challenges are much higher in the trades.

    My observations go beyond that. Most people don't like to read technical stuff. I have sat at board meetings where they are negotiating very complicated and expensive projects with my assistance. In a room full of professors, lawyers, doctors and other high academic achievers, is is painfully obvious that no one else in the room has taken the time to read the contract or scope.

    I really like a comment that I think @RayWohlfarth made in one of his books. Some guys with 30 years experience have 30 years cumulative experience. Others have the same year 30 times over. In reviewing someones qualifications and experience, I often reflect on that. I am working with a project super on a job right now who has 5 years experience 6 times. He gets the job done but hasn't taken the time to learn anything new in a long time.

    Carl

    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    GBartSolid_Fuel_ManRich_49
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    Honestly we try, the problem is NCLB, StudentsFirst and CommonCore have all failed this nation miserably, students are passed whether they are proficient or not, for some it's math, for some reading, but passing people isn't helping them, and most in the system probably think they are helping them or it would hurt them to stay back. They call them govt standards that aren't really standards they are corporate guises to make profits , NCLB, StudentsFirst and CommonCore are investment firms, people in the clique get to invest in a system that by law all schools are required to buy, they just forgot one thing like most investment firms..........a quality product, they're just focused on profit and it's a who's who in the clique, the Gates, Clintons, Bush's etc etc... so it's not just our trade, it's society as a whole and with the internet you don't have to read, everything is provided to you in a meme, now there's some real learning eh?

    But to the subject we do, we push the factory manuals, not opinions about how to do something, there are many in the field that don't even look at them and then try all sorts of strange off the cuff things to get a unit to work........the most important thing we can read in the factory manuals. Very little can go wrong if you follow them and HVAC protocols.

    I also try to get them to read about Tesla and the War of the Currents, we head them here and to the trade magazines.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,280
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    I don't think that the problem lies in the trade schools (what few there are), @Jackmartin so much -- although there surely are holes there. Rather, it seems to me -- at least observing the schools and the students in them in my area -- the problem is in the grade schools. The most fundamental basics are simply not taught at all: reading, writing (and spelling and grammar), arithmetic, history, basic science. They are just not there. If they are not learned at that level, they never will be learned well, if at all.

    I'm fortunate with my grandchildren; my son and daughter-in-law are bound and determined that those two girls will know those things -- so a great deal of time and effort goes into teaching them at home (and I may say that it's also made fun at the same time!). The two of them go to a very good public elementary school, but more for the socialization and that sort of thing -- they read and write and figure anywhere from three to six grades above their nominal level. Not all children are so fortunate.

    I might add too that there is a flip side: someone mentioned manuals. Um... some of them are written astoundingly poorly, and can take a good deal of puzzling to figure out what is really meant. Which, of course, goes back to the writing half of fundamental education.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited July 2018
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    As Jamie noted, parents need to play a strong role in their kid's education. Too many feel it is the sole responsibility of the teacher to teach their children well. It is not.

    Being a heating contractor is a really difficult job. You wear so many hats and the responsibilities are enormous. The one task that can't be ignored is making sure your employees are well trained. Most will not take it upon themselves to self-educate.

    If you are selling sophisticated equipment, and most of it is nowadays, they need to fully understand what they're working on. Manufacturer's offer so much training that there's no excuse to not take advantage of it. There are also YouTube videos by manufacturers if time does not allow for a trip out of town. Make it a job requirement, hold them accountable, and test them before sending them out to install a modulating condensing boiler or a VRF ductless split. Require them to read the installation manuals and service manuals and if reading isn't an ideal learning method for them, help them through it.

    I know from experience that there will be push back but knowledge begets confidence and in the end they'll be grateful you took the time. So will your customers. So will your bank account
    Steve Minnich
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    You have to understand that many kids have no parents to speak of, or they're not great role models, the main problem in the cities is the class size is too large for the types of students, they're behind the curve, class sizes need to be smaller than in the burbs, not larger, our cure for this has been as usual to add more management not teachers, in fact most managers never taught including our Supreme Corporate moron at the DOE.

    As to manuals, you have to use them, if you don't think you need them you may have an attitude problem, you have to use their settings, especially with the high end stuff, yeah the writing and organization could be better, I used to argue that at Carrier and offered to help especially with the commercial stuff, pertinent info is spread all over instead of together in one easily found page.
    Jean-David Beyer
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,131
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    You have to understand that many kids have no parents to speak of, or they're not great role models, the main problem in the cities is the class size is too large for the types of students, they're behind the curve, class sizes need to be smaller than in the burbs, not larger, our cure for this has been as usual to add more management not teachers, in fact most managers never taught including our Supreme Corporate moron at the DOE.

    Even kids with parents, the parents rarely take the time to communicate and acknowledge they are learning! I don't blame the system 100%, most teachers go above and beyond to help students, using their own money for supplies tutoring after hours, working summers to develop their courses, at one of the lowest pay scales.

    But amazingly congress considers 500 million for farm bailouts, with a weeks notice while cutting education $$

    Buy some freaking pencils for our students with those taxpayer dollars!
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Zmandelta TGBartGordy
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    My oldest daughter teaches Special Needs 7th and 8th grade kids. Trust me on this, parents are a big part of the problem. Also, I outfitted her classroom this summer with necessary book shelves and other things because the school district did not have the funds.

    I've done boiler work at schools in the City of Chicago. Its worse there, much worse. The kids are using 30 year old text books held together at the binding with duct tape. I kid you not. I want to say so much more but sharing my political beliefs would just start a back and forth that's senseless and I don't have the patience for it.
    Steve Minnich
    Solid_Fuel_ManGBartGordy
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,519
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    I think reading above all else is just about the most important thing their is.

    I have so many HVAC and electrical books my house may collapse, and I feel like I only know a small fraction of what I should know after 45 years in the business.

    I agree with @Jamie Hall that some manuals are very difficult to read and understand. I have always been a reader not so much now got some eye issues.

    We really need the trade schools back in a big way

    Parents need to get the kids off their phones and video games.

    We can't even get journeymen to read a steam boiler manual and follow the piping diagram
    TinmanNY_RobCLambGBart
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,626
    edited July 2018
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    I feel like I'm making headway because now when our service techs call me they have the manual open/loaded on the tablet. I still have to read it to them some times. I think next step is to have them hold the phone over it for a while.
    GBart
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 489
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    I'm not sorry that I take exception to the use of " tard " .......
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    I'm sure we can all agree that there is always a person or 5 on site who is so far beyond educated, that they cannot grasp such things as common sense. Maybe it's elementary curriculum, maybe it's the trade school, maybe it's the parents, maybe a combination of the bunch- however that's neither here nor there. As a kid who struggled through trade school and barely passed, working alongside the guy who aced every test has proven that the grades don't always matter. I'm a union guy and our hired help comes off a chronological list, "the bench" as we call it. I kid you not when I say there are often folks with 30+ years in the trade who come out to my jobs and cannot perform such a task as solder or reading a print. Ask them to read a submittal? Better luck finding DB Cooper. The "one year experience 30 times" analogy is spot on. I'll be the first to admit I'm a know-nothing moron, but like many others I continue to learn something every day. Sometimes from a 40 year veteran, sometimes from a pre-apprentice. Our trade school taught little more than how to pass the tests; the actual knowledge comes from experience. The odds that anyone I've ever met on site has read anything from Dan or Siggy are below zero, yet there are some very intelligent individuals out there that have learned the hard way also, just never put it on paper to share. I just picked up my first Siggy book the other day, and have been trying to get some pages logged but the brain fog is a little thick at the moment to retain any of it. Really looking forward to adding to the bookshelf and gathering some wisdom from the powers that be
    Tinman
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    GroundUp - Just a friendly suggestion when you're reading technical text like Siggy's books. Take notes. Your brain processes the information differently or longer or both but I know it helps. When I read technical stuff, I take notes or I use a highlighter.
    Steve Minnich
    GroundUp
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,626
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    @MikeL, and any others I offended, sorry. It's just frustrating that someone will be standing in front of the equipment, with manual in hand, and then have to call me to get the answers they look up in the same about of time it takes to dial my number.
  • MikeL_2
    MikeL_2 Member Posts: 489
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    Ratio,
    I'm not offended by it, more annoyed that suffixing with tard has become commonplace & accepted .......
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,525
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    Retired and loving it.
    MikeL_2Erin Holohan HaskellSolid_Fuel_Man
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,131
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    GroundUp said:

    I'm sure we can all agree that there is always a person or 5 on site who is so far beyond educated, that they cannot grasp such things as common sense. Maybe it's elementary curriculum, maybe it's the trade school, maybe it's the parents, maybe a combination of the bunch- however that's neither here nor there. As a kid who struggled through trade school and barely passed, working alongside the guy who aced every test has proven that the grades don't always matter. I'm a union guy and our hired help comes off a chronological list, "the bench" as we call it. I kid you not when I say there are often folks with 30+ years in the trade who come out to my jobs and cannot perform such a task as solder or reading a print. Ask them to read a submittal? Better luck finding DB Cooper. The "one year experience 30 times" analogy is spot on. I'll be the first to admit I'm a know-nothing moron, but like many others I continue to learn something every day. Sometimes from a 40 year veteran, sometimes from a pre-apprentice. Our trade school taught little more than how to pass the tests; the actual knowledge comes from experience. The odds that anyone I've ever met on site has read anything from Dan or Siggy are below zero, yet there are some very intelligent individuals out there that have learned the hard way also, just never put it on paper to share. I just picked up my first Siggy book the other day, and have been trying to get some pages logged but the brain fog is a little thick at the moment to retain any of it. Really looking forward to adding to the bookshelf and gathering some wisdom from the powers that be

    I think at the least a student should leave the trade school with an understanding of the basics on how heat transfer works, hot-cold, rate of transfer based on temperature difference, load calc, equipment, pipe and pump sizing, stuff like that.

    The hands on experience, I agree has to come from experience in real world conditions, tough to teach that in a classroom setting.

    Without trade school or some book learning you end up with lack of understanding and end up with methods like the "Long Island Boiler Sizing Method" that Dan mentioned.

    NATE certified techs for example seem to grasp the how and whys and seem to be better at electrical troubleshooting then and theory.

    I'd be glad to send you a set of Idronics, they are written at a very easy to read and use level and break the hydronic subjects into small sections. Use the issues that apply.

    cbasic
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,519
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    @GroundUp I am in the union as well and teach at the hall part time. It's a sad situation union or non-union.

    How many "plumbers butt" jokes are there?? The public impression of trades people is very negative. Of course this impacts the quality of young people entering the trades. We don't get the best we get what's left.



    GroundUp
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,280
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    @GroundUp I am in the union as well and teach at the hall part time. It's a sad situation union or non-union.

    How many "plumbers butt" jokes are there?? The public impression of trades people is very negative. Of course this impacts the quality of young people entering the trades. We don't get the best we get what's left.



    Not just the trades, folks. I have been -- besides a number of other things -- a part time or full time farmer all my life. There was a time when I was a young'un when that -- and the trades -- was a respected life. Now? Not so much. There seems to be an impression that only those who can't make it in a latte swilling metro café in some urb somewhere are the only ones who go into trades or into farming (the military has something of the same problem). I won't repeat a campaign statement from a couple of years ago -- but there are a lot of folks (including some of my friends, by the way) who would agree with it...
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,519
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    @Jamie Hall said,"There seems to be an impression that only those who can't make it in a latte swilling metro café in some urb somewhere are the only ones who go into trades or into farming (the military has something of the same problem). "

    The really sad thing is many of the younger people can't do the simple mechanical things. Change a tire on a car, replace a tube in a bicycle tire etc
    GroundUpCLambNY_Rob
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    Funny you bring that up @EBEBRATT-Ed , I had a 36 year old man come out a couple years ago as a 3rd year apprentice. We were working in a monstrosity of an old WW2 factory that was a mile square, so we had bicycles to get around the plant. This guy had a flat tire on his bike and was throwing a fit, so as someone with common sense might say, I told him to fill it up. 20 minutes later I see Robert wander into the boiler room on foot, no bike. Turns out he didn't know how to use the air chuck and fill his tire. I gave him a ride back (3 wheel trike with a tray on the back) and had to explain to a 36 year old man how to plug the chuck into the hose.
    CLambRich_49
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    I think at the least a student should leave the trade school with an understanding of the basics on how heat transfer works, hot-cold, rate of transfer based on temperature difference, load calc, equipment, pipe and pump sizing, stuff like that.

    The hands on experience, I agree has to come from experience in real world conditions, tough to teach that in a classroom setting.

    Without trade school or some book learning you end up with lack of understanding and end up with methods like the "Long Island Boiler Sizing Method" that Dan mentioned.

    NATE certified techs for example seem to grasp the how and whys and seem to be better at electrical troubleshooting then and theory.

    I'd be glad to send you a set of Idronics, they are written at a very easy to read and use level and break the hydronic subjects into small sections. Use the issues that apply.

    cbasic

    I can honestly say, that zero of those items were covered in our trade school. I've never met a fellow union guy who would know what Grundfos means. Anything that's not about how to put pipe together, was never covered in school nor do we work on anything remotely residential so any sort of load calc, circ sizing, head loss, volume calculation, etc is handled by our engineers and sent to the site on a spec sheet. We've got a few that simply use a PL-55 for every single application that requires an inline circ. The fitters on site install it because that's what came out. Doesn't matter that it's a 3 loop snowmelt system off a 20 plate 3x8 and only needs 2 GPM, it gets a PL-55 and none of the field guys are any the wiser. It's disgusting, really. I come to places like this in my spare time to better understand the trade and help my career, as I also run my own small residential business. The union makes it too easy to just follow instructions (or not, depending on the fitter) and never actually know WHY we do things. I'm glad there are folks like you willing to share your information and experiences with doofuses like myself who actually wish to know something about the trade
    CLamb
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,519
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    @GroundUp

    I understand it on the larger jobs, they install what is on the print even if it's wrong it was designed by an engineer. If you bring up things that are wrong you are looked down as hindering the progress of the job (been there done that) and "how can you know more than the engineer" and if you fix it you will do it for free. Their way is to install it and if it doesn't work get a change order to fix it.

    I teach electrical at the hall but a couple of years ago I got stuck teaching "hydronic heating and cooling" as the other instructor was sick.

    I used the B&G wheel, heat loss went through the steps, do heat loss, size heat emitters, size pipe, size pump and boiler.

    I got asked half way through. "do we need to learn this, were pipefitters, not engineers and will we ever use this?"
    CLamb
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,280
    edited July 2018
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    Look. Don't even get me started on engineers who've never actually worked in the field they profess to engineer in. I am a PE, as most of you know, and I got mine years ago, the hard way. There are some very good engineers out there, who really know what they are doing and why. There are also an awful lot of engineers out there who've never done anything but read texts and studied theory (and attended. for the last decade or two, continuing education snooze fests every few years) and have … shall we say a rather poor comprehension of real life?
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    CLambZmanCanuckerGBart
  • RomanP
    RomanP Member Posts: 102
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    I had to go through 4 year apprenticeship program in the state of NJ in order to apply for my LMP license. I always found myself arguing with teachers and class that tests are supposed to be actual tests and not open book reading exercises! I don’t care if I fail, I want and need to test my knowledge!!! I want to learn my weaknesses and improve on that. Open book???? F this!
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,626
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    IMO, open book is the way to go. There's simply too much to memorize for a trade, especially HVAC—much better to know where to go to get the right answers than try to remember everything. You'll remember the important parts if you use them often enough anyway.

    We work with all the major mfgrs, not a few of the minor ones, and from time to time some of the obscure or really oddball ones too. When I get to the job, or lay open the prints for the first time, I read the manual if I haven't been working on that flavor in the last six months.

    I do seem to be the exception, however, as I noted above. :confused:

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    There is nothing wrong with some of the info to be open book. When it comes to codes and I&0 manuals, the expectation should not be to memorize it. Learning how to find the information needed is the trick.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
    1MatthiasCanucker
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited July 2018
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    And keep the manuals on your truck. I used an iPad and had all of them saved as PDFs.
    Steve Minnich
    GBart
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,519
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    I agree with @ratio and others who are pro "open book" My brain can't memorize everything I need to know. What I have been pretty good at is reading but I don't try to remember. If something comes up it usually triggers my brain if something is out of wack.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,131
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    > @Stephen Minnich said:
    > And keep the manuals on your truck. I used an iPad and had all of them saved as PDFs.

    Put everything up on a cloud also. Then you can pull it down from any device, any time
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    GBart
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,280
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    Good heavens yes -- open book. And then open the book and read it....
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
    edited July 2018
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    From what I understand Ct is now open book for all HVAC license tests and many still do not pass, back in the day the only open book test I got was the contractors business law section.

    Perhaps they think "hell it's open book, I don't need to study hehe"

    We keep lowering the bar and students/tech keep going beneath it, is it human nature?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,832
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    Parents need to get the kids off their phones and video games.

    This.

    We can't even get journeymen to read a steam boiler manual and follow the piping diagram

    THIS!
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    GBart
  • GBart
    GBart Member Posts: 746
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    Well it's goes to the top, amembers our pesident sayin

    is our children ler'nin ?
  • RomanP
    RomanP Member Posts: 102
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    It’s a program that kinda prepares you for LMP exam where the code part is closed book. IMHO, we had to be tested with closed books to be better prepared for the big test. Plus, brain is a muscle and needs to be worked
  • RomanP
    RomanP Member Posts: 102
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    I personally approached it as a closed book. I would answer everything I know off the top of my head. My success rate was normally around 80-90%. There’s room to improve and improve a lot
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,280
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    RomanP said:

    I personally approached it as a closed book. I would answer everything I know off the top of my head. My success rate was normally around 80-90%. There’s room to improve and improve a lot

    Generally quite true. The book is there in two situations -- when we know we don't know, and when we think we might not. And needs to be used in both situations. The dangerous area is when we don't know we don't know, and forge ahead anyway.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    CanuckerGordy
  • ttekushan_3
    ttekushan_3 Member Posts: 958
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    I think the key to "open book" testing is to have opened the book BEFORE the test. :-)

    Manuals? Oh you mean "The Document Of Last Resort." :-)

    Curiosity and self guided learning are priceless and I'm afraid the current system leaves no room for such self discovery and development. Frankly, my joy in learning only reemerged after graduation from HS many many years ago.

    Thank God I was born before the small screen's incessant need for attention could insidiously distort and direct my thoughts during crucial phases of brain development.

    I propose that all manuals and learning materials be converted to animated short subjects, complete with sex, edgy computer generated music, and at least one gratuitous explosion. That should work. [sarcasm]

    Back to testing, I think the worst thing invented is the multiple choice test. It, like T/F tests, reinforces false information. Most of the statements on the page are wrong and there's risk of retaining the wrong answer.

    Regarding open book, I have always had poor immediate recall and so I've had to channel my way of thinking into creating mental road maps to the info needed. Obviously the big stuff becomes second nature. I managed an advanced degree this way. The good part about having to do things this way is having to revisit the logic of things I "know." Most of the time it results in reinforcement of knowledge. But many times I discover errors in my thinking. Profoundly useful course corrections happen.

    I doubt I'm unique in this way of learning amongst those who frequent this site. The thing is, I don't know if I could do it again if I'd been raised by TV & computers and had been isolated from Free Range play as a youngster.
    terry
    Tinman
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,519
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    I have taken several electrical licensing exams a total of 4 I think. Master & Journeyman In CT & MA.

    The first one was MA journeyman 37 years ago. All essay no book 16 questions you had to get 12 right to pass. Not much margin for error.

    I waited two years and went and got my masters. Testing was under the "new format" 1983. Open book. I forgot how many questions but the exam took hours.

    The thing is if you didn't know the code and the code book you would never have enough time to look up all the answers. If you knew a good chunk of the answers and had to look up the rest ....you could do ok.

    I remember waiting in line for the CT exam way back before computers 100 people in line on a Saturday morning. People are talking about how many times they took the test 6, 8 times and they were still flunking. It was my first and only time but after listening to them I broke out in a cold sweat figured I would never pass. The test wasn't that bad at all.

    open book closed book, you just have to know the material and what they are looking for. I have always done ok on tests. But I am probably lucky.

    everyone learns differently, some can't learn from books, some can only learn from visually seeing something.



  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    > @Steamhead said:
    > Parents need to get the kids off their phones and video games.
    >
    > This.

    Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this point @Steamhead I work with people in their late 50's and 60's. Their childhood predated cell phones and video games yet they still can't be bothered to read the operating procedures we have and complain when there is corrective action because they didn't follow it. I'm 15 to 20 years younger and their boss because I read and understood them. I did grow up in the "tech" era, I just have a curiosity about how and why stuff works. It's not a new phenomenon.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    Tinman