Weil-McLain QB-180; was it really time?

J_man76

First time ever participating in a forum like this. So, last week (on Monday) I had the oil company technician out for a regular annual cleaning and tune up of the furnace. It's a WM, WTGO Series 3 oil fired boiler with a QB-180 burner. The system was here in the house when we bought it in 2007, and I suspect it was pretty newly installed. The boiler system had worked very well for as long as we've lived here and we were diligent about annual inspections, maintenance and cleaning. After the most recent cleaning the tech said everything looked good and we shouldn't expect any issues; this was a Monday. By Tuesday evening we had no heat/hot water. I was at work, wife called, I told her to hit the reset button on the primary control once. She did, boiler fired and seemed to work all night. Wednesday morning boiler not working again, so I called the service company and they sent a tech over to inspect. He looked things over and replaced the CAD-cell eye, cycled boiled, working fine, then he left. My wife had a cold shower that night. Boiler still not working Thursday morning. Called service company again; tech came over Thursday morning (I was not there) and he replaced the nozzle (1.00x70A) and said he tightened some "lose wiring connections," cycled boiler, working fine, he left. Cold shower again by afternoon. I tried the reset button when I got home - no fire. I called service company again, they sent another tech. This is tech #3 (not including the one who did the scheduled maintenance Monday). This gentleman went over things well from what I could see. His theory was that the fuel/air mixture was off; perhaps the first guy tried to make an adjustment to increase efficiency and did just the opposite. He said,"I've got spark, I've got fuel, I just don't have fire. But we'll get it!" There was a very loud boom when he was in the basement and fired it up; enough I thought to go down and ask if he was alright (suspect excess fuel in the chamber from resets without ignition? Would that cause additional damage?) The boiler was working fine again when he left. Boiler working fine through the night and morning, but by 9:30am the next day (Friday) I had a cold shower. Hit reset button, furnace fired, working fine again. By night time though the system isn't firing up on its own again. Call service company Friday night, tech on call isn't really available so I wait till morning. Saturday, technician comes over (this is tech #4) and replaces a clogged nozzle, gives "a thorough inspection." Cycles boiler and says everything looks fine. First one to say these WM burners are troublesome. By Saturday afternoon the boiler isn't working. I call the tech back directly and speak with him, he's perplexed and says he's going to make some calls and get back to me. An hour later this service company's "Ace Technician" calls back and says he'd like to see it. I agree to have him come over and that I would also like their service manager to give me a call. The Service Manager did call and was very nice (this is a Saturday) saying she really wanted her Ace to look at it before deciding what the next step should be. At this point I'm a little grouchy with everyone - not rude or disrespectful - but probably not pleasant either. So the Ace shows up with the tech that was at the house earlier. He goes downstairs with a screwdriver and a crescent wrench and deduces in five minute that the transformer is bad (he did hit the reset button and it fired, but was pretty smoky - smoke coming out the flu vent and a small hole in the smoke pipe; then immediately shut it down). No multi-meter, no other tools or gauges, just, "you're transformer is bad and we can't get parts for this anymore."
They ended up doing a "crash install" of a new Becket burner, which the service manager said would never happen on a weekend. I'll give it to those techs, they worked on this till 10:30 on a Saturday night after going on a 1-hour parts chasing mission. When they left, I had heat and hot water and everything has been working great ever since.
Doing some research it seems these QB-180's aren't well respected by the pros and they were discontinued. That said, what I am really seeking advice on: was it really time for a new burner? Did the tech that did the cleaning mess something up? Were the other techs that looked at it not as thorough as they led on? Should they have tried some additional troubleshooting or replaced cheaper parts (electrode, wire assembly, tank filter)? I will be speaking with the Service Manager again this week - she did call Monday to see that my boiler was working - and we'll be going over the invoicing I suppose. I am fine paying for work and parts as long as it's fair, but I can't help thinking the first guy that came Monday messed something up and the others were unwilling to dig deep enough to fix it. Again, it was working fine before the cleaning/tune-up. Any advice would be very appreciated.

Jamie Hall

Perhaps a little older, perhaps a little problematic -- and I hope one of the techs chimes in (I'm don't do burners!). That said, I can think of a number of reasons why a burner would behave like that -- and all of them should be things which a competent tech could fix without replacing the burner. That was desperation on somebody's part.

Tinman

I agree. The buck has to stop somewhere, right? If they were in over their head, they should've said so. The "ace tech" making a diagnosis wth a screwdriver and crescent wrench may be the biggest red flag of all.

Mike_Sheppard

It sounds like, from your story, there was plenty more the tech(s) could have done. I’m a commercial/industrial burner guy so I very very rarely ever have to work small residential burner such as a Carlin or Beckett. But I carry all the tools and equipment to do so and have not once failed to fix one in the last 11 years.

At the very least, they can follow the manual and perform a start up, along with all the settings, combustion, etc. In my opinion, all of that is part of the troubleshooting. Aside from the burner, clogged oil lines, oil filters, etc can cause issues as well. And they make testers for testing those transformers. Every part of that system/burner can be checked and verified and when I do so I show the customer step by step what I did and I when I find a bad part I will test it in from of them to prove it.

I only worked on one Beckett burner this year. It was their larger “commercial” burner but still a small one. When I arrived they informed me I was the FOURTH company there to look at this. They said make sure you’re not standing in front of it when it lights off. Sure enough, it blew the front cover off about 20 feet back and shot a 5 ft flame out of it. I looked through the manual some, saw it was a two stage, hooked my oil gauge manifold to it and found the solenoid in the oil pump had gone bad causing it to light off with high fire pressure. It took all of 10 minutes to find a problem three previous companies couldn’t (and they had literally replaced every part of this burner except for the oil pump). Replaced pump, set pressure, did combustion tune up, hasn’t failed or had an issue in months.

lchmb

sadly it could have been a simple repair. They no longer make the burner itself, but honestly if set up per spec's it ran good on that boiler. I was aware the drawer assembly wasnt available for that unit, not the information on the ignitor. If they had turned adjustment cam and or replaced the nozzle with something other than what's spec'd it could lead to this issue.. Curious what state your in? With all that said, it may have been in your best interest to replace it with an afg. Least hopefully it can be serviced properly..

clammy

In the past i had installed and worked on quite a few and they did have some issue on early models but after a pre post purge and oil delay they ran very well in the gold models ,but sadly parts became a issue espically the nozzle assembly and igination tranny .When set up correctly they ran well but even though your was dated was 2007 i think the last one i installed was in early 2000 and parts where getting thin back then, u where going to have to do some thing w it sooner or later with a beckett parts should not be a issue .peace and good luck clammy

STEVEusaPA

You really didn't say if any of the techs used a combustion analyzer, draft gauge, pump gauges, or a meter. But the good ole 'change plugged nozzle, adjusted electrodes' is a sure sign of someone not knowing what they are doing.

A replacement transformer is easily found, so they shouldn't replace that burner just for a transformer.
The nozzle assembly and end cone are pretty much impossible to find.
The manual for that burner is still available online, and any competent tech would have one available. So there is no reason to not have the proper nozzle, nozzle line setting and air adjustment, then set up with the proper tools. I still have about 6 of these in my customer base, and they all work fine. That being said, upgrading the burner isn't a bad idea.

Unfortunately, you had a cavalcade of dunces in there. I doubt they Installed the Beckett burner properly, specifically the right air tube, end cone and nozzle. They probably didn't set up the combustion correctly either.

As far as the invoices, it worked fine, you had a cleaning/tune up performed, and had nothing but problems, with the only remedy a new burner.

I can't tell you what to pay, but I would tell them I would pay for the tune up, and for the burner at cost, if they wanted to keep my business.

There's so much training available thru their petroleum association, and NORA, that they should be embarrassed to even consider billing you for every trip and every knucklehead they sent out.

I'd still get a recommendation for another company with a better reputation, and let them take over.

J_man76

Thanks fellas; I do appreciate the thoughts here. If it's any help, I live in Maine. This is the third service company I have done business with for the boiler, only because the current company bought out the first two in successive years, swallowing up the smaller outfits scattered about the more rural parts of the State. The manuals for the boiler, burner and various other parts are all in an envelope next to the boiler with all of the previous service records. I can't say for sure of course, but it appears no one even looked at it. I see the start-up procedure in that manual and doubt anyone went through it. I saw one tech bust out a multi-meter with an amp-clamp. That's a big part of the issue here, isn't it? As a homeowner, am I responsible to look over the shoulder of every tech and watch what they do? I don't know exactly what they did or didn't do and have no way of knowing what's fair, normal, or if I'm getting screwed. I trust the service company to take care of me, and your comments seem to confirm my intuition...that they didn't. I consider myself a handy-man and have fixed many things others would have simple thrown away and replaced (I've never attempted any work on this heating system myself). And that's part of the current culture I hate: the "can't fix it, throw it out, get a new one mentality." Is this the mentality we're instilling in these younger folks coming out of technical schools? I hope I don't sound rude, i don't mean to be, I am just worried "repair" is becoming a thing of the past....

SuperTech

I have worked on a number of QB burners and I'm definitely not a fan of them. It was probably in your best interest to change it to a Beckett AFG.

But it sounds like you didn't have very competent techs there. What were the results their combustion analysis? Did they bother to do any? Oil burners need combustion testing to be set up correctly and safely. They should have left the results on a print out, or written on a tag.

The first tech probably didn't put the adjustment cam back in the proper position. Or used a different nozzle then didn't adjust the burner correctly. It wouldn't surprise me if they just looked at the flame and decided "it looks good"
Caveman approach to diagnosing burner issues.

SuperTech

And repair is becoming thing of the past. Companies now focus more on making their technicians salesman more than repairmen. They would rather have a technician that acts like a used car salesman than a competent repairman. It's disgusting.

ScottSecor

It has been years, but I too have worked on a few QB burners. Please keep in mind that many years ago our customer base was about 90% oil and 10% gas boilers, today about 99% gas and 1% oil.

That being said, the condition you described when you heard the loud bang is almost always caused by delayed ignition (oil is sprayed into combustion chamber for a period of time and eventually ignites). On a normal cycle the oil ignites as soon as it starts to spray from the nozzle (injector). In almost every case when we witnessed delayed ignition it was caused by too large of gap between the electrodes or a weak ignition transformer. I cannot recall a job when delayed ignition was caused by a clogged nozzle, how would it ever ignite if it was clogged? The cad cell "eye" rarely failed but are considered a disposable item by some companies, bad cad cell eyes do not cause delayed ignition.

Playing monday morning quarterback, I suspect the gap between your electrodes was too wide from normal wear and tear (they do wear out, especially when the burner is used year round). Due to the larger than normal gap between the electrodes, the ignition transformer also wore out and got weak. The combination of these two problems and perhaps the tech installed the incorrect nozzle (wrong spray pattern and or angle) were the cause of the annoying lockouts. If the company could have easily gotten a replacement ignition transformer, a new set of electrodes (or nozzle assembly) and the correct nozzle I suspect you would still be using your QB burner. However, I am pretty sure all of these parts are not easy or maybe even impossible to get. As a result the new Beckett burner (very reliable and very easy to get parts for) may have been the only choice.

I just looked in my drawer, my old Weil McLain QB manual is dated 2000 if that helps.

J_man76

This is all I have for information on what was done last week.

SuperTech

I agree on the delayed ignition diagnosis. The electrodes and transformer are difficult for me to locate, I certainly don't carry them. But any decent oil burner company should carry every component for an AFG burner.

You are much better off with the Beckett. CO2 seems a little high, CO definitely should be lower, I try to get as close to zero PPM as possible for complete combustion.

HVACNUT

Manufactured by Wayne specifically for the WM Gold, the QB-180 was short lived for a reason. They seem to build up too much static and kind of hiccup during the cycle. Walked in to a lot of soot bombs with those burners.
Very easy to set up and adjust, my little niece can line up those arrows. But she's not old enough to use my analyzer.
A company I worked for wouldn't approve a full service oil contract if it had the QB-180. They would give a discounted price to install a Riello. And that same company installed the Beckett AF2 with the Gold boilers so go figure.
I inherited a WGO3 when I moved in, in 2002 but it had the AFG Beckett. Still the first thing I did was replace it with a Riello.

Is the Beckett they installed temporarily or permanent?

HVACNUT

@J_man76. You said it's a WTGO series 3 but how many sections? WTGO-?
If it's a 3 section and they did infact install a new AFG, Beckett specs two applications.
1- F3 head with a .85 70°B. If they installed it with an F6 head, you might want to have them change it and readjust combustion.
2- L1 head with a .85 45°B
Both at 140 PSI.
Demand they do right by you, then never call them again.

GBart

They apparently do not know what they are doing.

If you paid with credit card cancel it.

you stated--after the most recent cleaning the tech said everything looked good and we shouldn't expect any issues; this was a Monday. By Tuesday evening we had no heat/hot water.

all parts like motor, transformer, pump, etc are the same as others, only a few parts are for this burner only

yeah it's not the greatest burner ever made, but if you follow the manual and set to factory spec's they will run, it ran before Monday for years

this is the manual- http://www.graycoolingman.com/uploads/1/0/6/6/10667336/weil_mclain_qb-180_300.pdf

GBart

SuperTech said:

I agree on the delayed ignition diagnosis. The electrodes and transformer are difficult for me to locate, I certainly don't carry them. But any decent oil burner company should carry every component for an AFG burner.



You are much better off with the Beckett. CO2 seems a little high, CO definitely should be lower, I try to get as close to zero PPM as possible for complete combustion.

any ignitor will fit, reuse the mounting plate

better off with the Beckett yeah but I'd be better off with a Countach or a 41 Willys coupe.........it wasn't needed

STEVEusaPA

ScottSecor said:

... I suspect the gap between your electrodes was too wide from normal wear and tear (they do wear out, especially when the burner is used year round). Due to the larger than normal gap between the electrodes, the ignition transformer also wore out and got weak...

I've never heard of that, nor do I believe it to be true. The transformer is working the entire time if it's intermittent ignition, regardless of gap.

Delayed ignition can also be caused by too much air (air band or wrong head setting), cracked porcelains wrong electrode setting, coked up end cone, weak/failed transformer (ignitor) or a problem with the fuel pump (just to name a few).
Most QB's had an oil valve on them, not necessarily a delay valve, which could've also caused a problem.

But looking at the service tag, a tech did a full service, didn't print out combustion results.
Two days later-new cad cell eye, no combustion test or any other diagnostics.
The next day...the nozzle is clogged? Hackish at best.
Two days later, replaced nozzle again, then a new burner.

Send the owner of the company the link to this thread.

--Side note--
I can understand having a senior tech, or service manager, the person with the most experience, but if they had to send over their 'Ace', what were they sending you before...pair of jokers I guess. They should all be properly trained, then the 'Ace' only needs to be called in on a real problem, not one created by incompetence or inexperience.

I'd check the Wall for a contractor in your area. There are some great people on here who may live near you that will do a great job.

GBart

the cad cell seemed a guess, oh well, it must be the cad cell, no readings, and they rarely go bad

J_man76

@HVACNUT the sticker on the boiler says P-WTGO-4; does that answer your question? Indeed they did put in a Beckett "AFG." Attaching pictures of various parts as it may help you guys with the particulars that are a certainly above my level of expertise.

STEVEusaPA

You know that entire burner set-up isn't brand new. Sure hope they didn't charge you for a brand new, out of the box, burner.

HVACNUT

That passes visual inspection. They should show you and leave on site a printout of the combustion analysis

SuperTech

> @STEVEusaPA said:
> You know that entire burner set-up isn't brand new. Sure hope they didn't charge you for a brand new, out of the box, burner.

Agreed. It looks like a re-used burner with some new parts slapped on it. If you look carefully it's pretty beat up.

Steamhead

I agree that it wasn't necessary to completely replace that QB-180. Like most flame-retention burners, they run fine if set up properly. Also, an ignitor shouldn't be hard to find: Beckett and Carlin both make baseplates for their electronic ignitors that fit the QB. I have even retrofitted a Carlin ignitor to an original QB baseplate in a pinch.

And, as with all burners, switching to an interrupted-ignition primary gets rid of the excess electrode wear.

I suspect they replaced the burner because the Beckett was all they knew how to work on. Not the first time I've seen this.

GBart

SuperTech said:

> @STEVEusaPA said:

> You know that entire burner set-up isn't brand new. Sure hope they didn't charge you for a brand new, out of the box, burner.



Agreed. It looks like a re-used burner with some new parts slapped on it. If you look carefully it's pretty beat up.

yeah I was kinda wondering why the baked on enamel was worn off the body, ...........hmmmm

HVACNUT

And on manufactures settings it specs a .75 80°B Hago so it's not a match burner for the WTGO-4.
Does it state "new" on the invoice?

@STEVEusaPA
Disagree with what exactly? The "new/used" Beckett has a sticker on the housing stating to use a .75 80°B so it is NOT a match for the GO-4, which takes a 1.25.

STEVEusaPA

...or a 1.25x80B @ 100psi w/F4 head. The spec has been modified over the years, but who knows what's going on there now?
Did they check the pump pressure and was it set up with an analyzer-smoke, draft?
Hopefully the OP can find a nearby Wallie that can take over, or a new oil company.

HVACNUT

It can work if set up right. And at no expense to the homeowner. That was their diagnosis and repair. Ah s*@t, just change the whole burner.
I can't tell for sure but its looks like a welded flange. Make sure it's the correct insertion depth. The OEM blastube has a white sticker on it. Yours should read GO-4.

lchmb

can just make out the set screws..universal flange.

J_man76

I spoke with the Service Manager this past Monday, she said she would get back in touch with me this week regarding the final invoice for this little project. Friday came and went and I never heard from her, so I will be calling them Monday to see what their thoughts are. One questions: The new Beckett burner says the nozzle should be a 0.75x80B HAGO SLD. The service tag says a 0.75x80A was installed. Is this a problem? Also curious your thoughts on the duration of this "solution." Will this burner work trouble-free for 10-15 years (save regular cleaning and maintenance), or should I plan on a new one sooner, rather than later? What's the normal service life of this boiler? Thank you all again for your technical assistance with this...

Jon_blaney

I have had a similar problem with technicians. If they see spark, they look for something else. Twice I had intermittent no starts on different equipment. The burners would light after they were cold. Took two or three visits to find the bad transformers. None of them tested the transformers on first call. It can not be the first time this has happened. go figure.

HVACNUT

@J_man76
As explained above, the nozzle, and the burner are not an OEM match for your GO-4. And firing a boiler at .75 GPH when its rated for 1.25 GPH is not healthy for the boiler.
As far as age, is there a little white sticker on the boiler with a code starting "CP****" ? That's the serial number. You can contact WM to find the age. The fact that it had the QB-180 tells me its about 20+ years old.
For all the nonsense they put you through, the Service Manager should offer you nothing less than a free, out of the box Riello F5 burner, OEM spec'd for your GO-4. And, they should be happy to do it.

SuperTech

@HVACNUT I'm not so sure about that. These guys can't handle a QB180, I don't think letting these guys wreck a perfectly good Riello is a good idea. The will probably throw another 80 degree nozzle in that too.

Maybe a Carlin E-Z burner would be a better idea.

STEVEusaPA

HVACNUT said:

And on manufactures settings it specs a .75 80°B Hago so it's not a match burner for the WTGO-4.

Does it state "new" on the invoice?



@STEVEusaPA

Disagree with what exactly? The "new/used" Beckett has a sticker on the housing stating to use a .75 80°B so it is NOT a match for the GO-4, which takes a 1.25.

I don't understand what you mean when you are asking me what I disagree about, I don't see a post about disagreeing with you.

Steamhead

According to the current Beckett OEM Spec Guide, if that AFG has an F4 head, a 2-3/4" static plate in the air tube, a 3" insertion depth and a 1.25x80B nozzle running at 100 PSI, it will match that boiler. Any good service organization will have the necessary parts to set the burner up this way.

If I were putting a burner in this boiler and could not get the OEM welded-flange air tube, I'd use a standard air tube and flange with the components described above. The W-M Gold Oil series does not carry positive pressure in the firing zone, so the welded flange isn't absolutely necessary.

The burner in question has a CleanCut fuel unit and what looks like a Honeywell R7284 primary, so it is capable of running with valve-on and motor-off delays. We just serviced a QB-180 on a WGO-3 with the original primary control on it, and it had both delay periods enabled from the factory. And BTW, it tuned up very nicely.

The only change I'd make on this job is to run a 1.00x80B nozzle at 150 PSI, which will match the 1.25 GPH firing rate while giving better oil atomization. This will produce a cleaner burn, especially with questionable fuel quality.

Leonard

Delayed ignition ........ on my 60 year old burner, problem I find is usually the long insulators are oilly sooted up after a year or so and are bleeding off some of the high voltage. So less voltage available to jump the gap.

I also notice my spark electrodes erode very little over a year, well ok once after ~5 years the gap got pretty wide , but minor bang.

Steamhead

Leonard said:

Delayed ignition ........ on my 60 year old burner, problem I find is usually the long insulators are oilly sooted up after a year or so and are bleeding off some of the high voltage. So less voltage available to jump the gap.

I also notice my spark electrodes erode very little over a year, well ok once after ~5 years the gap got pretty wide , but minor bang.

What make and model burner?

SuperTech

@Leonard 60 year old burner? I'm curious what model it is. Can we get pictures?

J_man76

Okay folks, it's been nearly a month now trying to get a final resolution on this matter, but I have finally received an offer on all this nonsense. I can't discuss prices on here, but the parts and labor on the new burner install were pretty high. The service manager has offered to cover it all if I agree to pay the fee for an annual service contract. I have already paid for the cleaning and tune-up that started this whole mess, so the service contract would be additional. The service manager acknowledges that her people put us through quite a bit that week, but says she's not in a position to comp the whole new burner install. I did send her a lengthy and detailed e-mail saying I thought this was the fault of poor diagnostic work by her technicians and that they replaced what they broke and I shouldn't be responsible for paying more. She disagreed, saying the old burner was liable to fail at some point, and again, not parts available. She also tells me that the reason a new burner was installed was a faulty ignition wire, which she says they are unable to replace. Interestingly, when you google "tune up kit for QB-180," you get all sorts of results to purchase this item, including Amazon; they're not expensive. I was told a reputable service company cannot buy parts from Amazon or related retailers because of warranty and quality issues (which I can understand). But, is it reasonable to assume that if a homeowner can buy this, that a good service company can get the same parts? I sent her a link to the kit available to purchase. I am working on getting the technical specs for the new Beckett burner install so I can run them by you guys (I was told the motor housing was used, so the nozzle in the burner is spec'd for my boiler and thus doesn't match the sticker recommendations on the housing they installed.). The service manager did say she could have her field service manager come out and check...the idea being I want some reassurance this thing is built properly for the boiler I have. Paying the service contract doesn't sound like too bad a deal for what seems like a newer burner that should last a while. Or, is it? The other option is to refuse to pay, cancel the CC and never do business with them again, which could lead to collections nightmares. I appreciate the thoughts here again.

Jamie Hall

If I were in your shoes, @J_man76 , I'd pay the service contract -- making sure you can get out of it in a year down the road, and call it a learning experience. You would get a new burner out of it at a relatively low price, and burners do get old...