How many mistakes in Near-Boiler piping can you get away with?

Ron R

I'm at the point where I've seen enough problem jobs to know that following the recommended near-boiler piping is the way to go, and I have to resist the the thinking that says: "....if they can do it, and it worked since 1985, how come I can't do it too?". I know we're not supposed to pipe risers from the header to the mains in between the steam taps on a boiler with 2 steam taps connected (...at least I think we're not supposed to do that...), but I seem to be seeing a lot of old boilers that have been working that way. Has anybody found a "successful" way to make that work? Or is it a case of they're getting away with it because the rest of the piping is Ok ? Or maybe I have it wrong, and it's ok to do that ? Thanks for any words of wisdom.

Ironman

No, we're not supposed to do it and here's the reason:



But your pic only shows one riser. So, what's wrong with it other than it should have had two risers, properly piped?

SeymourCates

The boiler in the photograph appears to have single riser to the header. The first main takeoff is a bit too close to that riser to accomplish much but otherwise the boiler doesn't have the situation you suggest.

KC_Jones

You posted a picture of one that is piped correctly, so I am not fully following you.

Your comments are correct, the mains should come off the header after all the boiler connections and before the equalizer (as shown in the picture). If you put the mains between 2 tappings you have created a colliding header. Since you can't put road maps inside the header the steam and water don't know what to do.

The basic concept of a header is to separate the water from steam and send nice dry steam into the system. If the mains take off between the header connections the steam is colliding inside the header and the water is always trying to go towards the equalizer. Once the water goes so far it will run into the steam trying to go the opposite direction. This will create a lot of turbulence and make the header less effective. Will it work? Probably, but doing it correctly it will work better.

Ron R

...sorry--that was not the right photo posted above.

Jamie Hall

It's rather important to make a distinction between the best way to do something and something which works. One should always try to do things -- such as the near boiler piping -- in the best way. One should also, however, recognize that other ways can, and not infrequently do, work.

KC_Jones

We must have all been typing at the same time. @Ironman that is a great graphic, I am wondering if a copy of it should be put in the systems help center (if it isn't there already).

@Erin Holohan Haskell what do you think?

Ron R

Thanks KC,
I appreciate your explanation (yes-sorry about the photo, that was the wrong one)- I usually see problem jobs after the installation is complete, and the subject of "it was like that before" always comes up. Understanding how and why does make it easier to fix it- and easier to get it right the first time. I was curious if anyone had a way to make something like that work, but we'll re-pipe if we see risers in between the taps. Thanks again.

nicholas bonham-carter

Often you will see old boilers with the risers Siamesed together, (no real header), and it worked because the old boiler design provided more steam chest in the sections.
Today’s boilers have no extra section height to provide that function, and therefore need correct piping.—NBC

Ironman

nicholas bonham-carter said:

Often you will see old boilers with the risers Siamesed together, (no real header), and it worked because the old boiler design provided more steam chest in the sections.
Today’s boilers have no extra section height to provide that function, and therefore need correct piping.—NBC

Exactly! This is why you can't pipe it like the old one.

Erin Holohan Haskell

KC_Jones said:

We must have all been typing at the same time. @Ironman that is a great graphic, I am wondering if a copy of it should be put in the systems help center (if it isn't there already).

@Erin Holohan Haskell what do you think?

Great idea, @KC_Jones. @Ironman, do we have your permission to share this graphic in the Systems Help Center?

EBEBRATT-Ed

@Ron R, as I mentioned in another post nobody is going to tell someone to pipe a boiler wrong. It is well documented that if it's piped right it WILL work.

That being said why do SOME boiler work when piped wrong?

For 100 different reasons. A few examples:
1 an oversized boiler may work when piped wrong because it has a small load connected to it compared to it's rating. The piping may be wrong but the boiler will never have to deliver rated capacity. It also hold more water than the correct size boiler which may help.

2. Radiator may have been removed. Once again the piping will never have to deliver the load it was sized for.

3. Venting may be inadequate. This slows the steam flow through the piping, velocity is slowed so there are no problems (except sluggish heating)

Personally I have never used a drop header, have on occasion piped the equalizer 1 size smaller than called for.

I have however never cheated on the # of risers or their orientation to the steam take offs.

Sometimes, I enlarge the risers to the size of the header as soon as they exit the boiler which I think helps a lot.

Ironman

Erin Holohan Haskell said:

KC_Jones said:

We must have all been typing at the same time. @Ironman that is a great graphic, I am wondering if a copy of it should be put in the systems help center (if it isn't there already).

@Erin Holohan Haskell what do you think?

Great idea, @KC_Jones. @Ironman, do we have your permission to share this graphic in the Systems Help Center?

Sure.

JUGHNE

I have never installed or changed out a steamer.....maybe someday.
I only get to work on existing systems that are approaching 100 years old. The oldest boiler is 1955, the newest is 2002.
The NBP varies on all of these.
The main saving features are very tall risers, very large piping (some with 6" risers), some with very large steam chests.
None of them are by today's book, but there seem to be no problems created by the NBP.

Also, all of these are running on the lowest possible pressure.
2 have vaporstats set to 4-8 ozs or so.
I brought up the last 3 mercury vaporstats my supplier had for the Midwest. So eat your hearts out, now I suppose the BluePrint stalkers will come after the HG stat (stored in a secure place BTY).

info43

**edited**
This is what you don't want to do.... in more ways than one.

the_donut

Fun times with fittings. I guess there are plenty of threads to turn during expansion/contraction.

nicholas bonham-carter

That graphic is from the excellent brochure, (The Color of Steam), published by Peerless Boilers. The whole little book is well done, like their boilers.--NBC

ch4man

ive got ya beat.

this is from my post on the paul system. has a very unstable water line that yet even more skimming hasnt helped.

im thinking the NBP needs to be redone

AMservices

Hey while we're showing off train wrecks, here's one I have in my pics that still makes me shake my head every time I look at it.

Double D

I still shake my head when I look at the pictures of this one. The contractor told the homeowner " that's the way I pipe all of them and I never have a problem."

Fred

Wow

New England SteamWorks

Too funny! I've seen my share, Lord knows. This one jumped to mind:

New England SteamWorks

The problem with the question is the premise: Define "working". Just because it doesn't bang doesn't mean it's working. All that wet steam is mighty inefficient. But the homeowner is in the dark. When they ask about the high fuel consumption, the contractor just blames it on the fact that it's a steam system!

New England SteamWorks

ch4man said:

ive got ya beat.

this is from my post on the paul system. has a very unstable water line that yet even more skimming hasnt helped.

im thinking the NBP needs to be redone

This one's easy: The guy had a 3' piece of 4" pipe laying around his shop for years. Then he got into welding. And lastly, he stumbled upon this steam job. He killed 3 birds with one stone!

AMservices

New England SteamWorks said:

The problem with the question is the premise: Define "working". Just because it doesn't bang doesn't mean it's working. All that wet steam is mighty inefficient. But the homeowner is in the dark. When they ask about the high fuel consumption, the contractor just blames it on the fact that it's a steam system!

I know what you mean. The building management company In charge of the boiler in my pic, told me that was one of their better working systems.

Ironman

Double D said:

I still shake my head when I look at the pictures of this one. The contractor told the homeowner " that's the way I pipe all of them and I never have a problem."

I'll bet he was quite proud of his work, too.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I always wanted to be the deciding vote! They are all beauties but I gotta give it to @New England SteamWorks

2" copper
2" Bullhead
Risers out of sync with drip
2 2" risers feeding a 4"???main

it's a winner!

Erin Holohan Haskell

Ironman said:

Erin Holohan Haskell said:

KC_Jones said:

We must have all been typing at the same time. @Ironman that is a great graphic, I am wondering if a copy of it should be put in the systems help center (if it isn't there already).

@Erin Holohan Haskell what do you think?

Great idea, @KC_Jones. @Ironman, do we have your permission to share this graphic in the Systems Help Center?

Sure.

Thanks!

brandonf

I like this "quality" setup

JUGHNE

So brandonf, does that quality setup show/produce any symptoms?? How does it heat.....hammer?
We all see the pictures but wonder how they perform.

info43

Mine was like that since 1993, no hammer some uneven heat. I never knew better. My boiler is now leaking, so it will be replaced this spring. Because of this site, I know how the new one should look, work be maintained, and about 150 less EDR.

lchmb

hopefully you can get one of the excellent service providers here to help you with your project info43

EBEBRATT-Ed

@brandonf , looks good to me it's just a steam boiler piped by a water guy!

JUGHNE

I was looking for the pump.

EBEBRATT-Ed

@jughne, gravity hot water at that. HAHA this just reminded me of something.

I herd from my helper I was supposed to do a small boiler replacement at a college. I asked him steam or water? He says "I saw the boiler at the shop, (thinking) water he says, it had an aquastat."

So we finished the job we were on around 1:00 so I said lets swing buy the other job and make a material list and take a look. So we get their and it's steam with a hot water loop with a hx.

I said "thought u said it's water" he says pretty sure it was. So I said meet me at the shop in the am. So we check the boiler at the shop, they bought a water boiler Smith series 8.

I go see our project manager, "you got the wrong boiler, job is steam the boilers water" He shows me pictures showing me the circ pump and I said look their's the gage glass .
in the pic.

So he makes a phone call and say's the right boiler will be here tomorrow, Smith steam.

So I made a material list for a series 8 steam has 1 riser.

Boiler shows up at the job , a Peerless two risers and other differences

Then I talked with the guy at the supply house. He looked at the job with our PM. They must have stopped for a liquid lunch they both thought it was water.

can't make it up

brandonf

No water hammer as long as the rads are pitched correctly. Boiler is also very oversized. 177k btu and house requires only 72k. Being an oil-fired boiler converted to gas doesn't help with efficiency. Once a year we have to clean the pigtail, gauge and sight glass. The steam is fast. All of my adjustable vents are on the lowest setting. My gas bill for January was $420 and I live alone in a one floor, 1000 sqft unit. I have a NG traditional hot water tank which is one year old. So I know the majority of the bill is getting racked up by that boiler. The steam is very wet and my vents clog often.