Weil-McLein CGM Series 8 HEADACHES

Manor24

Gordy said:

My stance on this is you need to get someone to fix this ASAP, and not the person who has been working on it.

Shall I bother filing a complaint with my local board of Consumer Protection after the last thieves took me for a ride 3+ times? I don't want my tires slashed...

Gordy

They left you with a non functioning unsafe boiler in my opinion. It was not fixed, and they charged you. I think its warranted.

JUGHNE

Amtrol says: "Adjust pre-charge to equal system fill Pressure"

Pressure reducing valves have factory setting of usually 12PSI.
The PRV is what dictates the system pressure when cold/room temp.

I set the pre-charge (with tank disconnected and room temp) a little above (maybe 14-15)........these can loose about 2 PSI a year IMO. If multiple tanks they should match charges.

Then when operating the system pressure might rise a few pounds, but never should approach the 30 pop off valve rating.

Note: I see above you have a 3 story house. So as Ironman said you should go for the 18 PSI for the pre-charge in the tanks, (disconnected) and set the pressure reducing valve to 18 when cold.

The more water in the system the more tank space you need.
Do you have cast iron radiators and large piping?

Manor24

JUGHNE said:

Amtrol says: "Adjust pre-charge to equal system fill Pressure"

Pressure reducing valves have factory setting of usually 12PSI.
The PRV is what dictates the system pressure when cold/room temp.

I set the pre-charge (with tank disconnected and room temp) a little above (maybe 14-15)........these can loose about 2 PSI a year IMO. If multiple tanks they should match charges.

Then when operating the system pressure might rise a few pounds, but never should approach the 30 pop off valve rating.

Note: I see above you have a 3 story house. So as Ironman said you should go for the 18 PSI for the pre-charge in the tanks, (disconnected) and set the pressure reducing valve to 18 when cold.

The more water in the system the more tank space you need.
Do you have cast iron radiators and large piping?

Oh, we need 18PSI for sure. But I cannot figure out how to raise the pressure in the system; the manual cold water fill seems to be frozen at today's low temperatures and I do not know how to adjust the automatic fill valve.

Right now the tanks are set to 13-14PSI (and functioning).

Is a 30 pop off valve sufficient for this system?

neilc

I, and you, will get flamed for this, but do you have a good air gage for checking tires?
which you can check the X tanks with?
real quick like without letting the majority of air out?

while the boiler is off, cooled, between run cycles ,

what do you have for tank pressure ?

is the boiler pressure still down around 10?
what do you have for boiler pressure?

I know the proper way to precharge the X tank is to isolate it from the water(zero water pressure)
but I'm gonna suggest you SLOWLY add air to the tank(s) and get them at least up to 18, maybe 20. no higher than 20 though, at least not yet.
This is assuming the boiler is still down around 10 as you wrote before.
as you add air, the boiler pressure may rise some as water is forced out of the tank(s) and back into the system,
go slow, and watch the boiler pressure, if it climbs above 18 - 20 then go to 22 with the tanks and stop there,
I do not expect you will get to boiler pressure 18 - 20 due to the previous safety valve discharges though.

this is a little hackish, but if your having trouble adding water now, you don't want to drop system pressure on the water to isolate the tanks, and it sounded like you had wiggle room from prior comments.

also, when it's running, what are you seeing for boiler temps ?
the high temp?

JUGHNE

The "Wolverine #84201" is adjustable. Usually there is a locknut to loosen and then rotate the top. Clockwise turning (opposite of a water faucet will raise the pressure) It looks like that has a fast fill lever on the top, if so you do not want to lift the lever as it lets full water pressure into the system.
I am not familiar with that fill valve......someone else here would be..........if it is pretty old the regulation part of it may be stuck.
Might be time for a new one??

The initial fill pressure must be enough to push the water up to the highest level of piping in the house.....plus maybe 5PSI extra.
The 12 psi is considered enough for the typical 2 story house.
The 18 psi would get you up to the next floor.

Even though the nameplate on your boiler say it is rated for 50 PSI for hot water, you should not get close to the 30 PSI. IMO
If your pop off has been dribbling or opened much it may be time for a new one as the spring may have been over exercised and weakened.

When your water is heated it expands and should push into/against the expansion tanks with minimal pressure increase on the system.
The volume of water, how much the temp is increased and the size of tanks determine how much pressure will increase......water can not be compressed....only the air in the tank.....not enough tank and the pop off will open.

How about pictures of the entire boiler, piping and tanks.
Maybe a couple samples of the radiators.
Back up for wide view, please.

neilc

and unless you have frozen water lines down there by the boiler,
you should be able to lift the little lever on that new fill valve to bring boiler pressure up to 18, once and only after you get air pressure into the tanks.
you did reopen the fill line hand valve you closed earlier, right?

the 30 safety valve is correct for you.
It should be mounted with the stem vertical though.
Worry about that in the spring.

neilc

add the water slowly,
you don't want to shock the boiler.

Jamie Hall

I see nothing wrong with your hack, @neilc -- but may I add a couple of thoughts? First, it is a hack, and sometime when one can one should isolate and drain the tank and air it up properly. If someone put a valve and drain on the tank line, that's not a big deal. Otherwise it's a pain. Second, it should be done when the system is cool, not hot. Third, before you try to add any air, give the Schrader a push quick like with the back of your tire gauge. You should get air. If you get water, the tank is toast and there's no point in playing with it.

Gordy

4th you need to get the aquastat properly fixed ASAP. The expansion tank adjustment is a minor detail really. Mostly to make sure it’s not grossly out of adjustment.

Manor24

Came home to more water on the ground, but it wasn't in the bowl under the pressure relief. The system was off and PSI read only 5.

Trying to get the pressure up via the expansion tank hank, will let you know how that goes.

Also got the OEM High Limit Control today, so I will have a real HVAC specialist put that in.

Manor24

A real HVAC specialist came today. Swapped out the High Limit Control and the system seems to be running better. We'll see...

ScottSecor

Some simple ideas that I might of missed. Water boils at 212 degrees F with 0 pounds of pressure, it boils at roughly 240 at 12psi and roughly 260 at 25psi (all of this data changes when the pump is on, sometimes dramatically).

We have seen many cast iron water boilers (most cast iron boilers we've installed were Weil McLain), that were coated internally with minerals. When coated and when operating at temperatures above say 150 degrees, we have seen boilers pop and rumble when firing. Most times the pressure gauge also jumps at the same time. Turn the flame off and the noise stops immediately. If this is the case the boiler water side may need to be cleaned or perhaps replace the boiler instead. My concern would be where was the leak that allowed so much make up water that the boiler heating surfaces are now coated in minerals (lime, calcium, etc)?

Manor24

I'm sure the system needs to be cleaned out, but now it seems like the pressure is a little on the high side (28 PSI hot) and the system is making lots of popping noises. Any thoughts?

Ironman

Try running Fernox boiler cleaner through the system and then flushing as per their instructions.

Gordy

The system, or the boiler? If the boiler it probably has a belly full of mineral deposits causing the percolating, as @Ironman suggested

Manor24

The boiler definitely needs a good cleaning. Probably will wait until after the winter. Is Fernox as good as Silver King #5, Hercules and Sentinel treatments?

HomerJSmith

ScottSecor, I know you know this--water boils at 212 deg F at sea level at 14.9 psi and the boiling point does go up as the pressure increases as you indicated which is why a boiler need to be pressurized, to raise the boiling point, aside from overcoming static head.

Where is the puddle of water coming from the PRV? The only thing that could cause that is a faulty PRV or a pressure in the system greater than 30#. Your tridicator readings may be inaccurate as to temperature and pressure especially if it is partially plugged with contaminants. Install a new tridicator after your cleaning.

The Boiler Fill Valve, BFV, should be checked as to the system pressure. The x-tank doesn't regulate the pressure in the system, but the pressure in the system will change if it is under sized as the water temp increases forcing water out of the PRV.

You can check the system pressure and the BFV by putting a Hose Bibb Pressure Gauge with a 30# gauge on it, for greater accuracy, and comparing it with the tridicator. Just connect it to any hose bibb on the system and read the sys pressure. If system pressure isn't 18 psi and you can't adjust your BFV, the put a new one on the boiler feed line, make sure it at least has a double check with atmospheric vent.

Adjusting the BFV-- remove the lever by rotating it counter clockwise- loosen the hex nut at the bottom several turns and use a screwdriver and rotate the threaded shaft clockwise to increase the pressure and counter clockwise to decrease the pressure. If you decrease the pressure, you must release some of the higher pressure in the boiler by releasing water out of the PRV.

Why 2 X-tanks and where are they located on the sys? If the sys pressure is greater than 18 psi, which the tanks are inflated to, let's say 24 psi, you lessen the acceptance volume of the 2 tanks.

The kettling may be flashing in the HX. It could be because of high boiler water temperatures as a result of a mal-adjusted or defective aquastat. Taco pump cartridges can get plugged with debris and interfere with rotation and flow.

HomerJSmith

Another X-tank mounted on its side. Looks like enough room to hang it.