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Big time Carbon Monoxide Scare and our Peerless boiler
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Shut it off do not put it back on until a professional who knows what they are doing says it is okay to operate. So far you have a bunch of people just guessing. There are plenty of qualified people who visit this site and are near you. CaptainCO is a highly qualified expert on this subject so pay attention to his directions. The only detector I trust is a Combustion analyzer in the hands of a pro who knows what he or she us doing. UNTIL THEN LEAVE IT OFF!0
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The architect needs to stick to architecture
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Is your CO Alarm at the ceiling?? When there is a CO problem and someone shows up without a CO meter he is not real concerned about your life.0
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We have 7 CO alarms now. Every which kind. A numerical monitor in the boiler room, a smoke/CO alarm outside the boiler room (near ceiling), a numerical monitor at the top landing of the basement stairs (where the fire department had seemed to be focused on measuring the most), a smoke/CO alarm at the ceiling overhang on the stairway to the second floor, a monitor that plugs into the wall in our bedroom on the 2nd floor (the only one that's kind of low because it needs an outlet), a monitor on the third floor and a smoke/CO alarm also on the third floor0
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Unless you get someone there that is more qualified they will be going off soon. These kind of problems do not fix themselves.
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Sheetrock a> @EBEBRATT-Ed said:
> The architect needs to stick to architecture
I'm always amazed at how little architects and engineers know about the residential heating. It's fine, yet when they have a chip on their shoulder it tends to bug me and I find that i perform less well when i am bugged. If they are a smidge humble about that fact that i know more than they do, i will bend over backwards for them
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I keep trying to tell contractors they are the brains of the industry, not the engineers, manufacturers, architects, Code officials etc.
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You teach us to have a clue; your class should be mandatory for every person that works with a fossil fuel.0
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Post some pictures. Get one with the front cover off and the burners on.0
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Ok I'm attaching some photos. Our contractor did convince us to switch to stainless steel double walled for the flue. He said he also doesn't like the angle at which the pipe from the water heater exhaust attaches to the main one, and he wants to have them meet higher up? And he says "too much tape!"
Alright I'm going to throw a new theory/question at everyone. My fiancé thinks that when we relit the pilot before the CO scare, he may have put the bottom cover back on over the wrong section- instead of the bottom, the middle- directly below the top cover. I had left the boiler room when he was putting it back on so I didn't notice. And when the alarm went off, and I sadly didn't know there was a shut-off switch on the far side of the boiler
(Alas we are making our contractor give us a shut off switch outside the room), we pulled the cover off and turned the on/off/pilot knob to off, and now looking back I think hmm maybe he's right and the cover was in the wrong place?
We feel like idiots, but also the manufacturers should design those covers to not be placeable over the wrong spot.
Could this explain anything?0 -
You brought up a very good point, aren’t safeties suppose to be checked during an annual inspection. That fellow is in over his head, needs to find another type of work...fast food industry always looking for trainable people...No excuse to let that boiler stay in service without finding the cause and addressing it..Is there a picture of the boiler and venting posted here?tiitii said:It was the spill switch the boiler tech noticed was missing when he came back after the CO scare. Sounds like something that would have been good to notice during the tune-up
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Exactly NY_Rob. I tested the cover out to see if it would even fit there, and it does- it goes on easily. You'd think it would have a lip on the bottom or something to prevent that0
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Could that have been what pushed things over the edge?0
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OT comment...
The floor area under and surrounding the boiler are filthy... it should be cleaned ASAP.
All that stuff eventually gets pulled in to the combustion chamber and makes trouble/poor combustion.0 -
Will do. But the panel potentially having gone in the wrong spot. Relevant?0
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Sounds like something has change to be causing this problem. Could be the combustion air, use this link about combustion air.
http://www.nationalboard.org/index.aspx?pageID=164&ID=191
Tells you how much you need, where they should be installed.
you said
" intake hole is really into a glassed solarium off the back of our house so it's not really full open fresh air" maybe in the past the solarium door was open and got better air to the boiler room. Make sure to get fresh air from the outside, if its not from the outside you need a lot more air.
To be in business and not have a detector, leaves me speechless.
Does the roof slant up, is the flue pipe 2' above anything within 10 feet? Has there been new buildings put up changing air currents?
Look at this chimney I'm sure if drafted better with out the trees around it. https://www.screencast.com/t/6yfBJneFyf
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Flat roof. Nothing nearby. Photos were in that earlier post. There is a somewhat taller building recently put up about 5 buildings away.
Other things that changed since we moved in-
1) Basement renovated & dryer exhaust funneled through boiler room. Attached is part of the email I just got from the tech about this- "THE DRYER IS A WHOLE OTHER ISSUE. THE MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE FOOTAGE FOR DRYER VENT PIPING REGARDLESS OF MATERIAL IS 35 FEET. EACH 90 DEGREE TURN COUNTS AS 5 FEET AND EACH 45 DEGREE TURN COUNTS AS 3 FEET. YOU WELL EXCEED THAT NUMBER SO GOING TOWARD THE BACK OF THE BUILDING IS REALLY NOT AN OPTION. THAT COMBINED WITH THE TRAP/BELLY, AND THE EXTENSIVE RUN OF FLEXIBLE DUCT USED IS JUST CAUSING TOO MANY ISSUES AND CONTRIBUTING TO THE CO PROBLEM. I WOULDN'T WANT TO CHARGE YOU ANYTHING TO ALTER IT AS IT IS NOW"
2) Raid bottle that must've been kicked under boiler during the above work. (Sounds like people don't think that's part of it but I'm including it as it is a change, per se)
3) fiancé probably putting cover in wrong spot over the middle section of boiler (as illustrated by NY_Rob above) after relighting pilot & 20ish minutes before CO alarm goes off0 -
You said the service guy put the cover back on over that center section of the boiler. I'm surprised that no one has latched on to that issue. I believe that open center section is to allow air to be drawn into the boiler to provide the needed draft for venting up the chimney. If that is correct, blocking that would clearly be a cause for the high CO problem you had. Any other comments on this issue, from the PROS ??0
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Hi Fred- it wasn't the service guy. It was my fiancé who relit the pilot light which had gone out. But same difference. It was his first time relighting the pilot (contractor had just shown us how to do it a week before) & I think he got confused where that cover goes. But yeah- about 20 minutes later is when the CO alarms went off & then fire department came and said 600 ppm.0
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I'm confident we have other problems that need to be corrected apart from that single-time error, but perhaps that error was responsible for the absolute speed and enormity of the CO development ?0
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Get someone in there, as has been suggested, who has a Combustion analyzer and who knows how to use it but, I think the CO issue, in that particular incident, was due to covering that center opening.0
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I've been following along on this thread. Quick question. Where are the best locations to install carbon monoxide detectors in a Home? High or low? Above stairwells ? TIA0
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Eye level near or in the bedroom..
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Captainco, any input on relevence of misplaced cover?0
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This may sound weird but that looks like the drafthood that was covered and that would not make it more unsafe. It would cause more pilot outages if there were downdrafts. Drafthoods are something I recommend getting rid of and replacing with barometrics. However, if the flue damper failed, and the drafthood was sealed there could be a big problem but there would be a problem anyway.
After reading this again I was wondering, has anyone check the water heater. Could it have been the problem in the first place?
Really need someone to check both.0 -
The hot water heater heater was checked. No issues were observed there. When we came into the boiler room it was definitely the boiler that was acting crazy- rumbling and too hot to touch. In retrospect this was so unsafe to do but it was one of those split second decisions- we pulled cover off with oven mits (it was too hot otherwise) and turned the gas/off/on knob. Thank goodness it didnt explode while we did that.
That middle section is where the second tech noted there was a lot of "spill" and where there was the missing spill switch.0 -
What the tech called the draft hood I thought was behind the top panel which screws off. If I remember correctly, the draft hood, behind top panel, is where he put his hand in far and said "I shouldn't be able to put my hand in like this."
Below that is where it was strangely hot instead bc of the spill during his visit. And this is the spot which would have gotten wrongly covered.
Boiler is a Peerless M1-5 if that helps clarify anything0 -
Spill switches usually trip when the flue is restricted of plugged but not necessarily when there are downdrafts or other negative pressure problems. A simple draft test with the boiler running and then right after it is turned off will determine if the flue is restricted. If negative pressure and downdrafts were the main problem they would affect the water heater also.
Also the probe on a conventional combustion analyzer cannot reach where this boiler has to be tested. A hole would have to be drilled into the plate in the middle section to get the probe over the burners. Other wise the contractor would have to make a special probe that could reach up, in and down to measure O2 and CO but not flue temperature(not that important in this case).0 -
The hole in the middle is the opening to the drafthood. If you look up it you can see the flue damper and the flue. If this is covered the cover will get hot because flue gases will transfer heat to it. Covering it would not make the boiler more dangerous. Someone that really knows how to do proper combustion testing needs to check this, not someone that is just guessing or has opinions.0
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Residential CO detectors will show "0" with low levels of CO.tiitii said:It is running again since the plumber came back Sunday. We got a CO reader that we have sitting directly next to boiler now and it's been consistently at 0, but that idea of shutting the boiler off til the problem is really resolved and fixed does sit better with me.
http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/are-you-at-risk/carbon-monoxide-levels/1 -
My goodness, I had a hard enough time finding someone who pretended they'd send someone with a combustion analyzer, never mind finding someone who'd design a new probe0
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A 3' piece of copper and a little rubber tubing is all it takes. I tested equipment where I had to use 15' to 20' of copper for a probe. Where is Matt S? I know he is close.0
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Just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, Captainco it sounds like you hold that with a CO issue like this- backdraft/venting/inadequate fresh air is not a sufficient explanation for the CO, correct? You hold that it HAS to be an issue with the boiler itself- & specifically burner adjustments, OR are you more saying that you strongly hold that those issues which can be diagnosed solely by a proper combustion analysis should be performed to RULE OUT an issue with the boiler but at the end of the day the conclusion could still be the fresh air & venting stuff?
We've already agreed to contractor to increase fresh air and convert to stainless steel double walled venting (sounds like you think that's a waste of money, but from what we hear from everyone else it can only help the backdraft issue). You maintain that there's no way these interventions could fix the problem or they could?0 -
Without a CA there guessing!
Contact ASM Mechanical on SI. Explain whats happening and you need a CA performed.0 -
A draft test determines if there is combustion air at the equipment but not if it is venting. Low draft can be combustion air or most likely negative pressure. We know there is combustion air in the room because we are breathing. Low draft is also a sign of a possible restriction in the flue. Stainless steel double wall material will not solve either. Flue are chases and inanimate objects. They do not create draft, they only contain it. Temperature difference of the flue gas and outside temperature and the pressure difference of the room and the outside create draft. Flue can be too small or they can get wet which will prevent venting. So far everything recommended is based on a guess and some antiquated assumptions.0
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Jim, as I read this thread the story you told us of the garage door 1 foot 2 foot 3 ,4,5,6 foot opening comes to mind. Is it possible that the house is becoming the chimney in this case?0
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Hmm, when I reached out to you guys I also reached out to a forensic engineering firm that had a webpage on preventing overheated boilers. They've also been so generous with their time and explanations.
To stir the pot- this was what they just replied- "Ok, now I see what your fiancé did! Wow! He covered the so-called draft relief opening! This is a NO-NO-NO-NO. That would certainly cause the furnace to malfunction and here is why:
This MI-05 furnace is equipped with a built-in draft hood. The hood is designed to provide for the ready escape of flue gases from the boiler in the event of no draft. We know (based on what you wrote) that this venting system has very low draft, at best. Therefore, backdrafts do occur. It is critical that the draft hood relief opening is always open and there are no obstructions to airflow in front of this opening. When he covered the relief opening, the gases went into the boiler instead of escaping through the relief opening. That is why the boiler malfunctioned and overheated and created so much CO.
Please make sure that the new vent pipe you will install is not too long for this particular boiler. This boiler is a direct vent one and it is intended to be vented into a chimney. Make sure the installer knows of these requirements. It is important."0
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