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Concerns about recent boiler installation

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wklopf
wklopf Member Posts: 44
Yesterday a local heating contractor completed installation of a new modulating, condensing boiler for me. Last evening I did some reading in the instruction manual and now I have three concerns. Probably my first concern relates to the relative locations the exhaust and intake vents. They are four inches apart, on center. The manual states a minimum of twelve inches. The exhaust vent extends out about eight inches farther than the intake. How big a problem is this? They did not install the screens on the ends of the vents. When I asked them about this, they told me that the screens cause more trouble by collecting ice and therefor blocking the vents. Should I nstall screens, yes or no? The outside temp unit was installed on the west side of the house, while the manual says that it should be on the north side. Should I move it? Thanks for your help.
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Comments

  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    edited November 2017
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    Sucking in exhaust can be a problem. Take a picture of it on mine the intake is a down turn 90 and the exhaust was 2 90 and a straight pipe to be 12 to 15 inches above the intake.

    If your handy you can move the sensor but I would try to make them do it when they fix the exhaust.

    It shouldn't ice up . If a rodent decides to make your boiler it's home it will not be good. We have an army of chipmunks near us.
  • New England SteamWorks
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    1. The exhaust is corrosive, and if it gets sucked into the intake can do damage to the unit.
    2. We always use bird screens
    3. North or East side okay, West or South not so much. Reason being the sun can skew the actual outdoor temp.
    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • j a_2
    j a_2 Member Posts: 1,801
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    Want more fun, post a picture....By the way did you get a combustion analysis, did they fill out the start up checklist, is the unit register with manufacture, and lastly what did the inspector say....
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited November 2017
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    Any mounting location where the sun hits the ODR sensor is not appropriate. If your west side mount never sees the sun, it's fine.

    Very rare that intake/exhaust screens freeze up... use them.

    Photos of the outdoor venting needed....
    Might be able to easily modify your existing venting to "snorkel" configuration if necessary.



  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    Left is the intake, middle is the exhaust. The right pipe is the discharge from a sump pump. I don't know anything about a combustion test. I was away during the last couple of hours of the installation. They said that I should be getting the paper work in a week or two. I plan to have the inspector there early next week.
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    Left is the intake, middle is the exhaust. The right pipe is the discharge from a sump pump. I don't know anything about a combustion test. I was away during the last couple of hours of the installation. They said that I should be getting the paper work in a week or two. I plan to have the inspector there early next week.
  • MikeJ
    MikeJ Member Posts: 103
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    We make sure there 12" apart on installs we do, you could 90 up then 90 out with a short pipe in-between. How much snow do you get.? Here we need to be 6" above snow level, snow level is 12" show are pipes need to be 18" above the ground.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,579
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    You can't leave it like that.
    Forget about the birds, the squirrels or even the worms will go through that one. You need proper separation per the manual with the screens installed.
    How does the rest of the installation look?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • BlueGreen
    BlueGreen Member Posts: 21
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    If the venting length inside is short, you could put a reducer (one size down) on the outlet do increase the exiting velocity and throw to minimize recirculation. Definitely get some screens in there.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
    edited November 2017
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    I would use the 2 90 and a length of pipe. While 12 inch separation may be called out many manufacturer's use closer spacing.

    Mine came with a stainless plate that is close together. They were specific on the height difference between the two however.

    You can swivel it so the effective separation is 12 at the top
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    I am a more is better kind of guy with regard to cross contamination. Go up like has been suggested. And any wind-blown snow will go right into that intake.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    I'll have to measure the run. According to the installation manual, the maximum combined length is 50' for 2" pipe and a 90 counts as 8'.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    That can easily be converted to snorkel venting... hopefully before the snow starts falling if you're in a snowy area.


    Ironman
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    Is that the ODR sensor mounted a few inches to the left of the intake?
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    NY_Rob said:

    Is that the ODR sensor mounted a few inches to the left of the intake?

    Yes! That also needs to be moved. I measured the run this morning. There are 30' of horizontal and seven 90s. According to the manual, that figures out to the equivalent of 86' of vent. According to the manual, 50' is the max for 2' pipe. Also, the intake is only 16" from the ground, and the vines are even closer. I'll ask the inspector what needs to be done. His word will carry more weight than mine.
    Zman
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,635
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    Congratulations @wklopf for being an informed homeowner. Your doing your installers job because the installer obviously can't or refuses to read the installation manual.

    Hopefully the inspector knows his stuff and stands on the installers neck.

    It's not rocket science, count fittings, measure pipe and install and oh, I forgot ........................MUST HAVE THE ABILITY TO READ
    Solid_Fuel_ManBrewbeerCanucker
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,077
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    Inside pictures would make for additional interest. The inspector may not be tuned in to piping errors.
    At best they may only be interested or aware of safety issues such as this. (especially if you point them out)
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,479
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    I despair of finding inspectors that know what they are looking at almost as much as i despair of finding people who read installation manuals - present company excepted!

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
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    I got a permit for my bathroom I remodeled.

    The inspector only cared about fire caulk and I think he checked the crimps for the grounds
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,579
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    Assuming you have not paid for this in full, I would simply hold the final check until the installation is per the manufactures instructions. Most manufactures warranties stipulate this.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    JUGHNE said:

    Inside pictures would make for additional interest. The inspector may not be tuned in to piping errors.
    At best they may only be interested or aware of safety issues such as this. (especially if you point them out)

    The photos below are where the vents come out of the top of the boiler and where they go up from below the joists to exit through the rim joist.





  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    Congratulations @wklopf for being an informed homeowner. Your doing your installers job because the installer obviously can't or refuses to read the installation manual.

    Hopefully the inspector knows his stuff and stands on the installers neck.

    It's not rocket science, count fittings, measure pipe and install and oh, I forgot ........................MUST HAVE THE ABILITY TO READ

    Thanks. I'm a retired scientist, and in that business you have to read everything carefully to figure out what it says and what it means. Also, my father was a carpenter, so, as a kid I learned that there are ways to do things and ways not to do things.
  • Leon82
    Leon82 Member Posts: 684
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    That reduction is not doing any help, what model htp?
  • MikeJ
    MikeJ Member Posts: 103
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    Didn't know you could reduce? We never have, would never even thing about reducing, that is us
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,635
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    What's with the criss crossed propress??
    Paul S_3
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    Leon82 said:

    That reduction is not doing any help, what model htp?

    UFT 080W

  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    Mike said:

    Didn't know you could reduce? We never have, would never even thing about reducing, that is us

    The vents coming out of the boiler are 3", but the manual allows using 2" pipe, up to the equivalent of 50'.
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    What's with the criss crossed propress??

    Those are the tubes for the cold water to an indirect water heater and the warm water out. I havn't studied that yet to see why they did it that way.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,077
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    Somewhere in the I&O manual it mention water piping materials allowed. For the water heaters they want only brass, stainless steel or copper connected directly to the boiler. You have black couplings at the top of this boiler. Maybe not a problem??

    Also there is a minimum clearance for servicing the unit.
    The copper shown in front of it may or may not be in the way for this spec compliance.

    They may need to use 3" for the entire run.

    I would check the location and flow direction of the pump, some want the pump pushing into the boiler. This would be in the piping diagrams
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,077
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    As for the reducing, I did 2 HTP Phoenix WHs.
    The distance was near the limits with length and ftgs.
    We used 3" for half of the run, reducing only on a vertical drop for condensate flow back, just like a steam equalizer drop.
    Then 2" thru the maze of existing piping in the boiler room near the new WHs.
  • MikeJ
    MikeJ Member Posts: 103
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    after looking at the manual looks like reducing pipe size is not a problem, I only install Lochinvar boilers and have not ever seen reducing vent pipe, as long as its in the installation manual its allow. also recommend install on the North seems a little off, wind blows from the North a lot in the winter
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
    edited November 2017
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    Have the same boiler at my house....

    3" to 2" reducer is okay per the manual- as long as it's in the vertical section.

    Circulator is on the wrong side- it's on the return just a ft or so from the boiler, should be on the supply side per the manual and modern common practice.

    The exhaust pipe (the one with the short gray CPVC section) needs to pitch back towards the boiler- take a bubble level and lay it on the pipe to confirm.

    Looks like an old install by the condition of the boiler?
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    The plumbing inspector wasn't at all interested in the boiler vents. He just wanted to see that there were expansion tanks installed. So, until I can get this system corrected, I have added a 24" piece of pipe to the exhaust vent to minimize the chance of drawing exhaust into the intake.
  • Mark Eatherton
    Mark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,853
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    I don't see any signs of primer (usually purple) or cement... I think the installer needs to come back and make certain the installation follows the installation manual, in all respects.

    ME

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 7,379
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    Shoddy workmanship!
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
    delta TDan Foley
  • Paul S_3
    Paul S_3 Member Posts: 1,261
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    Shoddy workmanship indeed.... where are you located? Is the installer willing to come back? Is PVC allowed for venting in your area?.... I have no confidence in inspectors...they are not interested in anything that makes sense....I was at a job in Harlem NYC that just passed a boiler inspection....the system does not heat correctly and the PVC was painted with grey spray paint to mimick CPVC
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    ASMMECHANICALCORP@GMAIL.COM
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/asm-mechanical-company
  • wklopf
    wklopf Member Posts: 44
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    Paul S said:

    Is PVC allowed for venting in your area?....

    What I have found in the code is that the installation must be according to the manufacturer's directions. These installation directions permit PVC if it conforms to a particular ASTM code, which I don't remember at the moment. I have not yet checked to see whether what they installed conforms.
  • NY_Rob
    NY_Rob Member Posts: 1,370
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    ^ ASTM D 1785
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,742
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    Here is a direct quote from D1785
    “This standard specification for PVC pipe does not include requirements for pipe and fittings intended to be used to vent combustion gases."
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,635
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    In MA. the state code says to follow the mfg. instructions. So if the mfg. says pvc is ok then it's ok. I believe IPEX is the only PVC mfg that has their pvc listed for venting and it states that on their pipe.

    That being said some locations in other states do not allow PVC.

    Just 2 weeks ago I read where MA is going to look at this again because of ongoing PVC issues and decide what to do