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Concerns about recent boiler installation

wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
Yesterday a local heating contractor completed installation of a new modulating, condensing boiler for me. Last evening I did some reading in the instruction manual and now I have three concerns. Probably my first concern relates to the relative locations the exhaust and intake vents. They are four inches apart, on center. The manual states a minimum of twelve inches. The exhaust vent extends out about eight inches farther than the intake. How big a problem is this? They did not install the screens on the ends of the vents. When I asked them about this, they told me that the screens cause more trouble by collecting ice and therefor blocking the vents. Should I nstall screens, yes or no? The outside temp unit was installed on the west side of the house, while the manual says that it should be on the north side. Should I move it? Thanks for your help.
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Comments

  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 448
    edited November 17
    Sucking in exhaust can be a problem. Take a picture of it on mine the intake is a down turn 90 and the exhaust was 2 90 and a straight pipe to be 12 to 15 inches above the intake.

    If your handy you can move the sensor but I would try to make them do it when they fix the exhaust.

    It shouldn't ice up . If a rodent decides to make your boiler it's home it will not be good. We have an army of chipmunks near us.
  • 1. The exhaust is corrosive, and if it gets sucked into the intake can do damage to the unit.
    2. We always use bird screens
    3. North or East side okay, West or South not so much. Reason being the sun can skew the actual outdoor temp.
    Serving Rhode Island & Eastern Massachusetts
    Old Houses & Steam Heat Our Specialty
    newenglandsteamworks.com
  • j aj a Member Posts: 1,702
    Want more fun, post a picture....By the way did you get a combustion analysis, did they fill out the start up checklist, is the unit register with manufacture, and lastly what did the inspector say....
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    edited November 17
    Any mounting location where the sun hits the ODR sensor is not appropriate. If your west side mount never sees the sun, it's fine.

    Very rare that intake/exhaust screens freeze up... use them.

    Photos of the outdoor venting needed....
    Might be able to easily modify your existing venting to "snorkel" configuration if necessary.



  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36


    Left is the intake, middle is the exhaust. The right pipe is the discharge from a sump pump. I don't know anything about a combustion test. I was away during the last couple of hours of the installation. They said that I should be getting the paper work in a week or two. I plan to have the inspector there early next week.
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36


    Left is the intake, middle is the exhaust. The right pipe is the discharge from a sump pump. I don't know anything about a combustion test. I was away during the last couple of hours of the installation. They said that I should be getting the paper work in a week or two. I plan to have the inspector there early next week.
  • MikeMike Member Posts: 73
    We make sure there 12" apart on installs we do, you could 90 up then 90 out with a short pipe in-between. How much snow do you get.? Here we need to be 6" above snow level, snow level is 12" show are pipes need to be 18" above the ground.
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 3,590
    You can't leave it like that.
    Forget about the birds, the squirrels or even the worms will go through that one. You need proper separation per the manual with the screens installed.
    How does the rest of the installation look?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • BlueGreenBlueGreen Member Posts: 7
    If the venting length inside is short, you could put a reducer (one size down) on the outlet do increase the exiting velocity and throw to minimize recirculation. Definitely get some screens in there.
  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 448
    edited November 18
    I would use the 2 90 and a length of pipe. While 12 inch separation may be called out many manufacturer's use closer spacing.

    Mine came with a stainless plate that is close together. They were specific on the height difference between the two however.

    You can swivel it so the effective separation is 12 at the top
  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 722
    I am a more is better kind of guy with regard to cross contamination. Go up like has been suggested. And any wind-blown snow will go right into that intake.
    Master electrician specialising in boiler and burner controls, multiple fuel systems, radiant system controls, building controls, and universal refrigeration tech.
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    I'll have to measure the run. According to the installation manual, the maximum combined length is 50' for 2" pipe and a 90 counts as 8'.
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    That can easily be converted to snorkel venting... hopefully before the snow starts falling if you're in a snowy area.


  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    Is that the ODR sensor mounted a few inches to the left of the intake?
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    NY_Rob said:

    Is that the ODR sensor mounted a few inches to the left of the intake?

    Yes! That also needs to be moved. I measured the run this morning. There are 30' of horizontal and seven 90s. According to the manual, that figures out to the equivalent of 86' of vent. According to the manual, 50' is the max for 2' pipe. Also, the intake is only 16" from the ground, and the vines are even closer. I'll ask the inspector what needs to be done. His word will carry more weight than mine.
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 2,852
    Congratulations @wklopf for being an informed homeowner. Your doing your installers job because the installer obviously can't or refuses to read the installation manual.

    Hopefully the inspector knows his stuff and stands on the installers neck.

    It's not rocket science, count fittings, measure pipe and install and oh, I forgot ........................MUST HAVE THE ABILITY TO READ
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Inside pictures would make for additional interest. The inspector may not be tuned in to piping errors.
    At best they may only be interested or aware of safety issues such as this. (especially if you point them out)
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 4,552
    I despair of finding inspectors that know what they are looking at almost as much as i despair of finding people who read installation manuals - present company excepted!

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 448
    I got a permit for my bathroom I remodeled.

    The inspector only cared about fire caulk and I think he checked the crimps for the grounds
  • ZmanZman Member Posts: 3,590
    Assuming you have not paid for this in full, I would simply hold the final check until the installation is per the manufactures instructions. Most manufactures warranties stipulate this.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    JUGHNE said:

    Inside pictures would make for additional interest. The inspector may not be tuned in to piping errors.
    At best they may only be interested or aware of safety issues such as this. (especially if you point them out)

    The photos below are where the vents come out of the top of the boiler and where they go up from below the joists to exit through the rim joist.





  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36

    Congratulations @wklopf for being an informed homeowner. Your doing your installers job because the installer obviously can't or refuses to read the installation manual.

    Hopefully the inspector knows his stuff and stands on the installers neck.

    It's not rocket science, count fittings, measure pipe and install and oh, I forgot ........................MUST HAVE THE ABILITY TO READ

    Thanks. I'm a retired scientist, and in that business you have to read everything carefully to figure out what it says and what it means. Also, my father was a carpenter, so, as a kid I learned that there are ways to do things and ways not to do things.
  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 448
    That reduction is not doing any help, what model htp?
  • MikeMike Member Posts: 73
    Didn't know you could reduce? We never have, would never even thing about reducing, that is us
  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 2,852
    What's with the criss crossed propress??
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    Leon82 said:

    That reduction is not doing any help, what model htp?

    UFT 080W

  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    Mike said:

    Didn't know you could reduce? We never have, would never even thing about reducing, that is us

    The vents coming out of the boiler are 3", but the manual allows using 2" pipe, up to the equivalent of 50'.
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36

    What's with the criss crossed propress??

    Those are the tubes for the cold water to an indirect water heater and the warm water out. I havn't studied that yet to see why they did it that way.
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    Somewhere in the I&O manual it mention water piping materials allowed. For the water heaters they want only brass, stainless steel or copper connected directly to the boiler. You have black couplings at the top of this boiler. Maybe not a problem??

    Also there is a minimum clearance for servicing the unit.
    The copper shown in front of it may or may not be in the way for this spec compliance.

    They may need to use 3" for the entire run.

    I would check the location and flow direction of the pump, some want the pump pushing into the boiler. This would be in the piping diagrams
  • JUGHNEJUGHNE Member Posts: 3,626
    As for the reducing, I did 2 HTP Phoenix WHs.
    The distance was near the limits with length and ftgs.
    We used 3" for half of the run, reducing only on a vertical drop for condensate flow back, just like a steam equalizer drop.
    Then 2" thru the maze of existing piping in the boiler room near the new WHs.
  • MikeMike Member Posts: 73
    after looking at the manual looks like reducing pipe size is not a problem, I only install Lochinvar boilers and have not ever seen reducing vent pipe, as long as its in the installation manual its allow. also recommend install on the North seems a little off, wind blows from the North a lot in the winter
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    edited November 19
    Have the same boiler at my house....

    3" to 2" reducer is okay per the manual- as long as it's in the vertical section.

    Circulator is on the wrong side- it's on the return just a ft or so from the boiler, should be on the supply side per the manual and modern common practice.

    The exhaust pipe (the one with the short gray CPVC section) needs to pitch back towards the boiler- take a bubble level and lay it on the pipe to confirm.

    Looks like an old install by the condition of the boiler?
  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    The plumbing inspector wasn't at all interested in the boiler vents. He just wanted to see that there were expansion tanks installed. So, until I can get this system corrected, I have added a 24" piece of pipe to the exhaust vent to minimize the chance of drawing exhaust into the intake.
  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Member Posts: 5,617
    I don't see any signs of primer (usually purple) or cement... I think the installer needs to come back and make certain the installation follows the installation manual, in all respects.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
  • IronmanIronman Member Posts: 3,750
    Shoddy workmanship!
    Bob Boan







    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Paul SPaul S Member Posts: 1,254
    Shoddy workmanship indeed.... where are you located? Is the installer willing to come back? Is PVC allowed for venting in your area?.... I have no confidence in inspectors...they are not interested in anything that makes sense....I was at a job in Harlem NYC that just passed a boiler inspection....the system does not heat correctly and the PVC was painted with grey spray paint to mimick CPVC
    ASM Mechanical Company
    Located in Staten Island NY
    Servicing all 5 boroughs of NYC.
    347-692-4777
    [email protected]AIL.COM
    ASMHVACNYC.COM
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  • wklopfwklopf Member Posts: 36
    Paul S said:

    Is PVC allowed for venting in your area?....

    What I have found in the code is that the installation must be according to the manufacturer's directions. These installation directions permit PVC if it conforms to a particular ASTM code, which I don't remember at the moment. I have not yet checked to see whether what they installed conforms.
  • NY_RobNY_Rob Member Posts: 639
    ^ ASTM D 1785
  • KC_JonesKC_Jones Member Posts: 3,304
    Here is a direct quote from D1785
    “This standard specification for PVC pipe does not include requirements for pipe and fittings intended to be used to vent combustion gases."
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
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  • EBEBRATT-EdEBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 2,852
    In MA. the state code says to follow the mfg. instructions. So if the mfg. says pvc is ok then it's ok. I believe IPEX is the only PVC mfg that has their pvc listed for venting and it states that on their pipe.

    That being said some locations in other states do not allow PVC.

    Just 2 weeks ago I read where MA is going to look at this again because of ongoing PVC issues and decide what to do
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