New Weil McLain Steam boiler in 100 yr old home

greenfalcon

Hi folks, new to this forum, but after reading so many steam related nightmares, I decided I had to chime in with mine. My plumber installed a new Weil McLain boiler a couple of weeks ago and we have been having radiator (pissing black water) ever since. We also have major water hammer and on radiator will not heat up. I have been reading about many of the folks who have had similar problems and I'm stuck. My plumber says these new issues are outside the scope of his boiler replacement (which I know is a crock), but he admits he doesn't know how to fix the issue, We have blown the boiler down and drained it 5-6 times over this time period but still no luck. We are trying to sell our house (passing papers soon) and I fear that this issue will kill my home sales. Thx to all.

KC_Jones

Pictures, either something in his install or it could be as simple as needing to be skimmed too high pressure. Hard to say, but pictures of the install are needed for us to help.

And you are correct if it was fine before and now it isn't, it is a result of him touching it.

greenfalcon

Thanks KC I will take some pics. We did find out after the original install and the first incidence of the radiator and water issue was that the boiler pressure was set at maximum, which the plumber admitted was his fault. Not sure how to skim, but understand the need to drain off the sludge in the boiler periodically.

KC_Jones

Skimming is standard procedure on new boiler installs. If the plumber doesn't know this they probably didn't install the skim port. I can understand missing that detail because it's in the manual that your installer probably didn't open.

If he didn't install the skim port he needs to. I am going to guess you have a Weil Mclain EG series, but it doesn't matter as the procedure is still the same.
https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/EG EGH Series 5 Boiler Manual 0117.pdf

page 10 shows the location of the skim tapping that needs a pipe installed and the procedure starts on page 24. I will warn you it take many hours to complete and possibly several sessions depending on how bad the oils are.

BobC

New boilers come with a skim of oil on the castings and that oil is bad for steam systems. To remove it you have to slowly feed water into the boiler so the oil on top of the water will float out the skim tapping. Bring the boiler up so it is hot but not boiling. This should be done so it takes a couple of hours to fill a 5 gal bucket and it will take several sessions to get all the oil out..

If you look in the manual they usually indicate where the skim tappin is, it's usually a 1/1/4 or larger tapping a little above the normal water line.

Bob

MilanD

Pics of install will help: boiler with all the near boiler piping in the shot, wet return side, controls.... Sounds like install was not to manufacturer's specifications.

MilanD

Skimming explained
https://youtu.be/2ydzKcBKOVc

Dave0176

Can’t wait to see the near boiler piping pics!

greenfalcon

Wow, didn't realize there was this kind of expertise online...tremendous help guys. I took some pics of the boiler, the return vent (Gorton #1) which is also pissing water, the wet side controls etc. The site glass does have one inch of sludge on top the water column. Hope these pics help.


eat
er

SeanBeans

uh ohhh

MilanD

Yeah... Wow. There is no header, no equalizer... That boiler is probably sucking water right out into pipes. You need to call that bozo who put it in and ask him to repipe per user manual... This is not remotely close to spec. So sorry you are dealing with this.

BobC

After he pipes it like the f#$king manual (hopefully with a drop header) he can install the skim tapping and get rid of the crud.

Hopefully you still owe him money on this install.

Bob

greenfalcon

Thanks Bob and Milan, are you suggesting I show him the manual and make him adhere to the spec? Is there a specific section I need to show him? What’s my recourse strategy with this guy? He already got paid (my bad).

BobC

That looks like a PEG or EG boiler, page 17 shows the MINIMUM acceptable piping -

http://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/eg-peg-egh-series-4-manual_1.pdf

It is the installers duty to install a boiler per the manual, if he refuses to do it tell him you'll see him in small claims court.

Bob

KC_Jones

There is a manual, with a picture showing how it is to be piped. Your recourse depends on what is in your contract.

Does the contract say proper piping? Manufacturers specs, anything like that?

He didn't follow the manual, it's wrong and there is no argument on that, well not a logical argument. Most likely your old boiler had a larger steam chest or some other difference. With a new boiler you need to follow modern piping or it will never work right.

Also it needs skimmed, that is why you have all that crud in the sight glass.

MilanD

The fact 'the plumber' installed this willy-nilly without following the directions makes him illiterate just as much negligent. If he absolutely refuses to come and fix this (and don't let it drag on), call your bank and stop the payment on the check, or if you paid with the credit card, call the credit card company and dispute the payment as soon as possible. What he did, in essence, is equivalent to swindling. If he refuses to fix this, threaten to also report him to BBB AND that you will report him to your state's Attorney General's office (for consumer protection). Getting a letter from Attorney General's office makes one stand up straight.

Regardless what was in the install contract you signed, it is implied he will install the boiler per manufacturer's spec (listed in page 17) of the installation manual, OR BETER. That's why the boiler comes with the installation manual - so it can be installed - per manual. What he did is no different than if he just brought it in and left it in the basement not connected to any piping.

Be persistent, there is always recourse. Worst case, scenario - take him to court. Hopefully, it won't come to that. I am sorry you are experiencing "caveat emptor" on your own skin. That truly sucks...

JUGHNE

Pictures 4 and 7????
Is that a modified draft hood of some sort?
It doesn't look like something from the factory.

Does the install manual have a single smuge fingerprint on it?

STEVEusaPA

Do NOT stop payment on a check without consulting an attorney. In some states it's a felony, regardless of the reason. And/or the person you issued the check to could be entitled up to 3X the amount of the check in damages.
If you didn't pay him, don't until it's fixed. Follow the others recommendations about repair, but don't give this person more money, or yourself a legal problem by stopping a check. Unless your attorney advises you.

I agree, horrible job, knew it as soon as I heard 'plumber' (no offence to the great plumbers who do know their job)

greenfalcon

Thanks to all who contributed to my plight today. I did speak to Weil McClain and my local supply house and they were as surprised as you guys at to the missing steam header and associated Hartford loop. And the skim fitting. I reached to a "steam" guy referred by the supply house and he thinks it just a reconfiguration of steam line to slow down the steam, insert the Hartford loop and skim valve and go from there. I'll keep you guys posted, thanks again for your guidance, take care.

greenfalcon

I hear you Milan. I have "steam guy" coming in next week referred by the supply house, hopefully we can get this done asap. I definitely intend to report this guy to the local authorities...as I know every inspector in my region and the local authorities.
PS:, I worked at a local Gas Utility for 15 yrs and dealt with all of the commercial contractors daily...some guys just didn't get it and other s were great....needles to say I stuck with the guys that got it. Been awhile! Thx guys

JUGHNE

I am not familiar with that boiler but I am sure someone here is.
I appears that the draft hood part of the exhaust flue has been altered. Perhaps he lost the factory furnished one or thought his own design was an improvement?
That is usually not something done to any gas appliance.

Considered a possible CO danger.

KC_Jones

JUGHNE said:

I am not familiar with that boiler but I am sure someone here is.
I appears that the draft hood part of the exhaust flue has been altered. Perhaps he lost the factory furnished one or thought his own design was an improvement?
That is usually not something done to any gas appliance.

Considered a possible CO danger.

Same as mine and @ChrisJ boiler. The draft hood looks fine. It is a bit odd with the round pipe coming down, but I believe they do this to use the same hood on multiple boilers. The next size up it's completely open.

Dan Foley

Looks like a standard W-M EG draft hood?

AMG63

Looking at picture 4. I also see a pump on this thing. Maybe he thought it was a water boiler not steam.

EBEBRATT-Ed

We know the installer is an idiot who probably thinks he knows everything and refuses to read a simple boiler manual and piping diagram.

This isn't #@$%&*()#@ROCKET SCIENCE.

Mr Homeowner, why can't you read the manual and figure it out yourself??

MilanD

AMG63 said:

Looking at picture 4. I also see a pump on this thing. Maybe he thought it was a water boiler not steam.

You are right!! Wow!

Fred

@greenfalcon said: "Thanks to all who contributed to my plight today. I did speak to Weil McClain and my local supply house and they were as surprised as you guys at to the missing steam header and associated Hartford loop. And the skim fitting. I reached to a "steam" guy referred by the supply house and he thinks it just a reconfiguration of steam line to slow down the steam, insert the Hartford loop and skim valve and go from there. I'll keep you guys posted, thanks again for your guidance, take care."

Don't accept any "reconfiguration of that piping to slow the steam down" as a fix for what needs to be done to make it right. It needs a good header to help dry the steam before it enters the Main(s), it needs a Hartford loop to help prevent the boiler from emptying out and perhaps dry firing should you have a leak in one of the wet returns, It needs an equalizer to both allow water that falls out of the steam, in the header to drain back to the boiler and to equalize the pressure both inside the boiler and where the Hartford loop ties in to keep the pressure in the boiler from pushing the water back out the wet return.

This is a new install, demand it be done right and, at a minimum, to the specifications in the I&O manual. You have to live with whatever you accept and you have an obligation to yourself and your family to ensure it is done right and that you get what you paid for. If that means you have to act like an **** until its done, so be it. That's better than regretting the fact that you "settled" and have to live with it for the next 10 or 20 years. It is more than likely the manufacturer won't even warrant that equipment, should you have a problem a year or two down the road.

SeanBeans

what is that pump doing there exactly?

ChrisJ

All of the smaller EG series get that style drafthood. It's 100% OEM.


As far as I could figure out, the *0 versions are all "modified" downfired versions of the EG-*5 which is actually the full size boiler.

So an EG-45 is the full size, the EG-40 is downfired and tweaked from the original design.

Jstar also felt this had something to do with us not being able to use a barometric with my EG-40.

JUGHNE

Well, I stand corrected, it looked "field made" (homemade) because of the galv tin and the screws looked a little random spaced from the back side..............I just don't get to town much .

One less thing for the homeowner to worry about.

However shouldn't this have a solid base under it? Looks like the minimum concrete blocks under it. (I know picky-picky little things)

ChrisJ

> @JUGHNE said:
> Well, I stand corrected, it looked "field made" (homemade) because of the galv tin and the screws looked a little random spaced from the back side..............I just don't get to town much .
>
> One less thing for the homeowner to worry about.
>
> However shouldn't this have a solid base under it? Looks like the minimum concrete blocks under it. (I know picky-picky little things)

Yes the foundation must be reasonably sealed to limit combustion air

Dave0176

Weil-McLain modified the install instructions for Series 5 boilers. They actually give the option of using the second riser in 2” pipe.

Dave0176

With your current installed single 2” riser piping on an EG-40 boiler has steam exit velocity of 31 feet per second, if you were to follow the manual Weil-Mclain is recommending 22 FPS with 2-1/2” pipe, OR using two 2” risers will get you to a perfect 15 FPS.

Dave0176

This is a comparison if you’d like to show your plumber but here the exact same boiler as yours I did about two years ago. Two
2-1/2” risers into a 3” drop header with a 2” equalizer.

ChrisJ

> @Dave0176 said:
> Weil-McLain modified the install instructions for Series 5 boilers. They actually give the option of using the second riser in 2” pipe.

I don't think they ever stopped you from using it. You can always go above and beyond the minimum recommended piping.

JohnNY

Is it wrong that I'm entertained by these messed-up-boiler posts that happen all the time?

SeanBeans

I'll just leave these here for you @JohnNY

Lennox GSB- 299kbtu
one of central jerseys "big steam guys"
measured one apartment and figured all the rest were the same.
was notorious for getting to a job, seeing a parallel-flow system and yanked as hard he could down on the main because the condensate had to "flow back to the boiler."

EBEBRATT-Ed

@JohnNY , kinda like watching a car wreck. The more watching you do the worse the wrecks get

ChrisJ

JohnNY said:

Is it wrong that I'm entertained by these messed-up-boiler posts that happen all the time?

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

@JohnNY , kinda like watching a car wreck. The more watching you do the worse the wrecks get

I don't think anyone can say it's wrong, but I'm not entertained, more like disgusted.

These problems are often the reason people pay some company to come in, rip the entire system out and put forced air in and that's not helping anyone on this forum.

JohnNY

Great pictures, @SeanBeans
@ChrisJ , you're a thousand percent right. For that reason alone, it's a shame.

greenfalcon

Thanks all, the boiler has a hot water loop on the wet side of the boiler for a 3 season room in my New England home that has baseboard heating elements.. thats the reason for the pump. Fred, thanks for your comments and guidance on whats needed to get this right.
Fred's comment: Don't accept any "reconfiguration of that piping to slow the steam down" as a fix for what needs to be done to make it right. It needs a good header to help dry the steam before it enters the Main(s), it needs a Hartford loop to help prevent the boiler from emptying out and perhaps dry firing should you have a leak in one of the wet returns, It needs an equalizer to both allow water that falls out of the steam, in the header to drain back to the boiler and to equalize the pressure both inside the boiler and where the Hartford loop ties in to keep the pressure in the boiler from pushing the water back out the wet return.