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Another 3" drop header

EzzyT
EzzyT Member Posts: 1,201
Replaced the grossly over sized steamer with a Crown BSI 103 with a 3" drop header, auto feeder, king and return valves, upgraded the main venting with Barnes & Jones Big Mouth Vents, upgraded the radiators vents and installed a 2-stage gas valve triggered by a vaporstat.
Thanks again to @dannyscully for helping out on this one.
Just have to go back to skim some more.

Comments

  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,334
    It's @Danny Scully, and you're welcome :wink:
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,331
    Beautiful. This is why I mention your names when someone's looking for a Steam Man in your area.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,247
    Nice work, Ezzy. Love the Crown steamers.

    - DF
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,201
    Thanks Frank and Dan much appreciated.
  • Tim McElwain
    Tim McElwain Member Posts: 4,506
    I love it !
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,592
    Beautiful work Ezzy and Danny. I'm not a big steam guy, so a couple questions. What's the need for valves on the risers? Why no anti siphon loops on the controls or gauges? Because you dropped down, then back up? Again, nice!
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,868
    Very nice!
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,334
    edited July 2017
    @HVACNUT, Valves on risers are for blowing boiler down (maintenance/cleaning proceedure involving raising pressure in boiler, then allowing it to "blow down" out of a drain valve). There are no pigtails because @EzzyT created a water seal. It's a lot more reliable and easy to clean. The drop header has no effect on the water seal. The drop header aids in dry steam production.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,592
    edited August 2017
    > @Danny Scully said:
    > @HVACNUT, Valves on risers are for blowing boiler down (maintenance/cleaning proceedure involving raising pressure in boiler, then allowing it to "blow down" out of a drain valve). There are no pigtails because @EzzyT created a water seal. It's a lot more reliable and easy to clean. The drop header has no effect on the water seal. The drop header aids in dry steam production.

    >>ok, thanks. Got it with the valves. The drop header I know about from you guys on HH, but what's a water seal and how does it prevent water from entering the controls? That's what I meant by dropping down (at the cross tee) then back up to the controls.
    Thanks
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,032
    damn nice work Ezzy!!
    your a master of the trade!
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,201
    Thanks Tim, @HVACNUT, @Ironman and Gerry.
  • EzzyT
    EzzyT Member Posts: 1,201
    @HVACNUT the water seal is in substitute of the pigtail and as Danny Scully mentioned it a lot better and easier to service and maintain then a pigtail
    HVACNUT
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,592
    > @EzzyT said:
    > @HVACNUT the water seal is in substitute of the pigtail and as Danny Scully mentioned it a lot better and easier to service and maintain then a pigtail

    >>Thank you, but I don't understand the definition of "water seal" or how it works. If you could please explain.
  • MilanD
    MilanD Member Posts: 1,160
    edited August 2017
    > @HVACNUT said:
    > > @EzzyT said:
    > > @HVACNUT the water seal is in substitute of the pigtail and as Danny Scully mentioned it a lot better and easier to service and maintain then a pigtail
    >
    > >>Thank you, but I don't understand the definition of "water seal" or how it works. If you could please explain.
    >
    >
    Condensate will form at the drop point of the pipe and up the controls leg, like a ptrap. Being on a dead end (ptrol vstat connected above it) and above the water line, it creates a water seal which protects the controls from steam. Pipe being larger than 1/8 pigtail generally takes much longer to clog. This makes it a better setup, bc it is much safer against runaway pressure buildup due to clogged pigtail.

    As long as the pipes form a full 360* turn before the pressure controls, it doesn't matter which direction the loop starts off. LGB controls branch comes up from the horizontal boiler connection pipe before dropping back down. Dead end on the trol, just like a rad with inoperable vent, will never see steam as air is in its way acting as a plug.
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 9,760
    edited August 2017
    The water seal acts like a U tube manometer. Steam pushes down on one side of the U and compresses the air trapped on the other side of the U. Your controls and gauges only see/feel the air and not direct steam.
    All controls and gauges are seeing the same pressure as they are on the same manifold.

    Easy to clean out thru the cross fittings. I still remove the devices and check them.
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,592
    @MilanD and @JUGHNE . Thanks guys. That's what I love about this business, you never stop learning.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,331
    JUGHNE said:

    The water seal acts like a U tube manometer. Steam pushes down on one side of the U and compresses the air trapped on the other side of the U. Your controls and gauges only see/feel the air and not direct steam.
    All controls and gauges are seeing the same pressure as they are on the same manifold.

    Easy to clean out thru the cross fittings. I still remove the devices and check them.

    Whether to use this control tree setup or a set of standard pigtails really comes down to personal preference. Either way will work.

    Here is an example of our preferred method. This is on a Weil-McLain 7-80 we installed several years ago. The standard setup on this model boiler has the control tree coming off the front of the boiler, fairly close to the waterline, and using a dropped water seal as shown above. But when we install one of these, we do it something like this:



    This setup has several important advantages:

    1- it comes off the top of the boiler, so dirty water can't wash into it;

    2- the parts that hold water are brass, not steel, so they won't rust;

    3- you can check to see if a pigtail is plugged by simply removing the gauge or plug from the tee under the control, and blowing into it. This way, there's no need to remove the control from the pigtail unless you want to test it.

    We've used this type of setup for quite a while and have never had to remove a pigtail for cleaning.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    MilanDLionA29SeanBeans
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,172
    Nice @EzzyT I haven't had the time to do any boiler replacements this summer as AC is keeping me so busy, not complaining though. Got another commercial AC replacement coming up, it's gonna push my boiler replacements into boiler service season, sigh, the wonders of being in business.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 12,836
    Dave0176 said:

    Nice @EzzyT I haven't had the time to do any boiler replacements this summer as AC is keeping me so busy, not complaining though. Got another commercial AC replacement coming up, it's gonna push my boiler replacements into boiler service season, sigh, the wonders of being in business.

    And not being on Facebook to show pictures............ :(
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    MilanDDave0176
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
    Nice work. I like the lack of a pigtail. Less clogging and easy access to clean.
    :NYplumber:
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 4,592
    @Steamhead, why 3 pressurtrols? Operating and manual reset. Is the 3rd. a B control for low, high, low firing?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 15,331
    edited August 2017
    @HVACNUT , you got it. This one has a PowerFlame burner with lo-hi-lo, and the Vaporstat on the left drops the firing rate as pressure builds.

    Here's the link to the install of this boiler:

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/153445/boiler-replacement-on-larger-webster-type-r-system-finally-ready-to-post
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    HVACNUT
  • LionA29
    LionA29 Member Posts: 255
    edited August 2017
    Job well done @EzzyT !
  • Bug512
    Bug512 Member Posts: 51
    Has anyone ever posted the wiring schematic when using the two stage gas valve?
    Gene in Northern NJ
    NJ HVACR License 19HC00537600
  • SeanBeans
    SeanBeans Member Posts: 487
    I'm curious as well @Bug512
  • MilanD
    MilanD Member Posts: 1,160
    edited September 2017
    Look at WM LGB wiring diagrams... The valve needs to be 2-stage capable. I have a video here somewhere on the setup. My understanding is that it's not really sanctioned by boiler manufacturers on domestic systems, only some commercial, so good steam guys do it on their own. But, I may be wrong on that one.
  • Bug512
    Bug512 Member Posts: 51
    Thanks! I would like to see the video as well. I am aware of the two stage gas valve. My main focus is building automaton in the commercial world but do like to do all my own work at my home. I will look for the wiring diagram.
    Are there any issues with the boilers condensing at low fire ?
    Gene in Northern NJ
    NJ HVACR License 19HC00537600
  • MilanD
    MilanD Member Posts: 1,160
    I'm really not sure - our LGB is with 7 sections (LGB7), 780 MBTU input, and low stage drops it to about 560... I wouldn't think condensing would be an issue on steamers. I'll let the pros answer that one.
  • MilanD
    MilanD Member Posts: 1,160
    For LGB, look at here page 6: when 2nd vaprostat is used, it breaks the MV lead, on the right of the 2 control panels.
    https://www.weil-mclain.com/sites/default/files/field-file/lgb-6-23-ucs-nat-control-supplement_1.pdf