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Lineset pitch etc

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  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,109
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    Lawyers...Lawyers........
    So a supply house sells the HO a gas valve set up for NG....but the HO doesn't know the difference between NG and LP (which he has).
    Fire, explosions and burns happen. Who is at fault? HO is the victim ...supply house (deep pockets are assumed) should have known better??

    But if a pro buys this and has the same outcome with disaster,
    the pro is on the line. Oh, a real ambulance chasing shark of a lawyer will name the pro, wholesale house, HW or WR whoever and even the LP supply company who of course sells a dangerous product.
    But most likely it stops with the pro.
    This scenario has set the bar for a long time so the counter people are instructed likewise to only sell to "pro"......but they don't have to be A$$holes..IMO.

    Again the 50 dollar sale with potential liability or the 5000 sale without any. Lawyers......Lawyers.....
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,923
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    JUGHNE said:

    Lawyers...Lawyers........
    So a supply house sells the HO a gas valve set up for NG....but the HO doesn't know the difference between NG and LP (which he has).
    Fire, explosions and burns happen. Who is at fault?
    HO is the victim ...supply house (deep pockets are assumed) should have known better??

    But if a pro buys this and has the same outcome with disaster,
    the pro is on the line. Oh, a real ambulance chasing shark of a lawyer will name the pro, wholesale house, HW or WR whoever and even the LP supply company who of course sells a dangerous product.
    But most likely it stops with the pro.
    This scenario has set the bar for a long time so the counter people are instructed likewise to only sell to "pro"......but they don't have to be A$$holes..IMO.

    Again the 50 dollar sale with potential liability or the 5000 sale without any. Lawyers......Lawyers.....

    That;s something serious that needs to be rectified in this country.
    Who is at fault? The person who installed the valve, period. No one else.


    My mom bought a new toaster. It has a tag "Do not put in water while plugged in". Seriously? That tag should not be necessary.

    Companies should have to do a reasonable amount of stuff to keep their products and customers reasonable safe. You know, no hot chassis with non-polarized plugs etc. We are so far beyond that it's sad.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    They are A$$holes before they even know what you want or if the product in question has any real risk for misuse or improper installation.Heck, I suppose one could hunt themselves with a hammer and some pipe hangers. No one sues the store where the hammer was purchased unless it was proven to be defective. Anyway, it is OK. I go to another Supply house, Pickrell Brothers, here locally and they treat me just like all the other guys at the counter.
  • KC_Jones
    KC_Jones Member Posts: 5,750
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    Liability....don't get me started. So things I have personally seen.
    1. Warning on a laser printer toner cartridge. "Do NOT eat the toner".
    2. Pictures of screwed up piping on one of our units, picture of a dirty boot print on top of the "NO STEP" sticker. Piping was skewed due to people walking on it. So they weren't smart enough not to step on it and not smart enough to clean up the boot print before sending us pictures. Yes they took the pictures and sent them to us. We warrantied it because that's what we do.
    3. Adding "Wash the unit" stickers due to road salt corrosion because people didn't realize salt was corrosive. Keep in mind these are professionals who do this for a living.

    I could go on and on. Some of the things I see and do daily are due to complete and utter morons working in business or trades they have no business being in. They make fun of burger flippers, guess what they are a burger flipper.
    2014 Weil Mclain EG-40
    EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
    Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    ChrisJ said:

    JUGHNE said:

    Lawyers...Lawyers........
    So a supply house sells the HO a gas valve set up for NG....but the HO doesn't know the difference between NG and LP (which he has).
    Fire, explosions and burns happen. Who is at fault?
    HO is the victim ...supply house (deep pockets are assumed) should have known better??

    But if a pro buys this and has the same outcome with disaster,
    the pro is on the line. Oh, a real ambulance chasing shark of a lawyer will name the pro, wholesale house, HW or WR whoever and even the LP supply company who of course sells a dangerous product.
    But most likely it stops with the pro.
    This scenario has set the bar for a long time so the counter people are instructed likewise to only sell to "pro"......but they don't have to be A$$holes..IMO.

    Again the 50 dollar sale with potential liability or the 5000 sale without any. Lawyers......Lawyers.....

    That;s something serious that needs to be rectified in this country.
    Who is at fault? The person who installed the valve, period. No one else.


    My mom bought a new toaster. It has a tag "Do not put in water while plugged in". Seriously? That tag should not be necessary.

    Companies should have to do a reasonable amount of stuff to keep their products and customers reasonable safe. You know, no hot chassis with non-polarized plugs etc. We are so far beyond that it's sad.


    So that must mean you can put it in water when not plugged in......so how long do I wait before I plug it in after I take it out of the water? Someone will push that envelope.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    There is retail, and whole sale distribution for a reason. I don't think it is fair to demand whole sale service as a retail customer. You want whole sale perks start a legitement business.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,923
    edited April 2017
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    Gordy said:

    There is retail, and whole sale distribution for a reason. I don't think it is fair to demand whole sale service as a retail customer. You want whole sale perks start a legitement business.

    Baloney.
    I want to buy parts and other things at retail prices.

    This is a given, none of us ever asked for the same pricing as contractors get, nor do we get it. The first thing they ask is if you have an account or not.

    I don't expect a discount, but I do expect to be treated decently.

    Since you commented @Gordy , do you have anything useful to add to the topic of the thread? Lineset pitch?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    There was a time when "Retail Perks" far out weighted "Wholesale Perks" but in any case, I don't think anyone is asking for any "Perks" just plain decent Customer service when you step up to the counter and know what you want to buy, even down to the part #. Like I said earlier, if you don't want HO money, just say so in your advertising and I can and will go elsewhere. I don't ever even consider JSC anymore, haven't for years, and neither of us have suffered as a result of me taking my business elsewhere.
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    Someone could @Gordy but it still doesn't make any sense or justify the reason to not sell the parts, if you're legally allowed to perform the work. Shouldn't that line of thinking make all gun manufacturers responsible for every gun related injury or death? (No, I'm not trying to start a gun debate. That was the closest analogy I could think of this late in the afternoon. Haha)
    It's a moot point to me, as I'm up in Canada, so unless you have a license to install gas equipment, you can't get the parts here(legally).

    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,923
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    @Fred What pisses me off is I go there, knowing exactly what I want, and get treated badly. I'm also legally allowed to buy R22 and so on, but still get treated poorly.

    I can understand if someone goes there, not having any idea what they're doing etc.

    The truth is I have not been there since 2004, so for all I know it's completely changed. But I some how doubt it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    ChrisJ said:

    Gordy said:

    There is retail, and whole sale distribution for a reason. I don't think it is fair to demand whole sale service as a retail customer. You want whole sale perks start a legitement business.

    Baloney.
    I want to buy parts and other things at retail prices.

    This is a given, none of us ever asked for the same pricing as contractors get, nor do we get it. The first thing they ask is if you have an account or not.

    I don't expect a discount, but I do expect to be treated decently.

    Since you commented @Gordy , do you have anything useful to add to the topic of the thread? Lineset pitch?
    How much usefulness does one need?

    Also I didn't say anything about pricing. Although it applies. There might be 1 in 10 homeowners that try to go to supply houses that know exactly what they need, and don't need a 1/2 hour explanation on how it works, or is installed. An umbrella policy then has to apply to prevent this. The counter person has no way of knowing the customers depth of knowledge, and is not there to try, and determine that.

    How you felt you were treated, and how you handle that is your personal choice. Bottom line it's not like a homeowner is a consistent customer.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,923
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    Gordy said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Gordy said:

    There is retail, and whole sale distribution for a reason. I don't think it is fair to demand whole sale service as a retail customer. You want whole sale perks start a legitement business.

    Baloney.
    I want to buy parts and other things at retail prices.

    This is a given, none of us ever asked for the same pricing as contractors get, nor do we get it. The first thing they ask is if you have an account or not.

    I don't expect a discount, but I do expect to be treated decently.

    Since you commented @Gordy , do you have anything useful to add to the topic of the thread? Lineset pitch?
    How much usefulness does one need?

    Also I didn't say anything about pricing. Although it applies. There might be 1 in 10 homeowners that try to go to supply houses that know exactly what they need, and don't need a 1/2 hour explanation on how it works, or is installed. An umbrella policy then has to apply to prevent this. The counter person has no way of knowing the customers depth of knowledge, and is not there to try, and determine that.

    How you felt you were treated, and how you handle that is your personal choice. Bottom line it's not like a homeowner is a consistent customer.
    It's not like a contractor is a consistent customer either.

    Treat people on an individual basis, period.


    I went to a huge plumbing supply near where I work to have pipe threaded. Not only were the 2 lengths not the right length, they used a conduit die set!!!!!!! I saw it and said "that's not right..." and he grabbed a fitting and yep, not right.

    So........even though I was pissed, I treated the guy with respect, it was a mistake. But he also admitted he had no clue and would rather not ruin any more pipe. So, I wasted 45 minutes and got nothing.

    Regardless, I was respectful to him.

    They're not too bad in there, I bought my Ridgid pipe cutter and a bunch of other things from them.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,701
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    I hate to get involved in this, but it's not the supply house per se, but the people who staff &| manage the places, not the places themselves. My local Johnstone is a real gem, I buy the majority of my tools there. I know all the counter guys by first name, and I can tell you that they aren't rude to homeowners, nor anyone else. They try and help anyone who comes in as far as they are able. They have, from time to time, elected to not assist certain people in less-than-safe endeavors, but it's not a policy, more of a judgment call. They have a responsibly to ​the company to avoid a train wreck of liability that could occur from selling certain parts to obviously incompetent persons. That is one of the costs of living in the USA.

    I guess I'm saying blame the people, not the place. Complain to the branch manager if you were treated poorly, ask for the regional or corporate manager if you are really pissed. When I worked as a small cog in a large machine (as opposed to now, which is a small cog in a small machine), I always offered to get the corporate contact information whenever I fielded a complaint.

    ChrisJ
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I appreciate your comments @ratio , but you know what? We HO's can be busy people too. Paying full retail for a part, waiting until all the so called Pro's have been taken care of and then expecting me to call a Corporate number and get passed around to half the staff's voicemail, ain't gonna happen. Not on my time anyway. Their local management team is there and sees how some customers are treated. They can see the counter guy talking to a Pro about yesterdays ball game, play by play. They see customers, licensed or unlicensed (there is no stamp on anyone's forehead, that I've noticed) waiting to be taken care of. In reality, it is their loss because my dollars could contribute to them being even more successful.
    The best option for a business that does not care about each and every customer is to not do business with them and @Gordy like I said, when I go to a supply house, I know exactly what I want, down to the part #. They don't have to determine if I'm an idiot or not. They just have to get off their **** and get my part. When the next guy shows up and asks for a thingamajig, then they can cop an attitude. I'm just sayin.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    @Fred you are one in how many? I guess you have to understand the culture of whole sale/supply houses before the Internet, and big box stores came into existence. The culture still try's to hang on.

    Really manufactors kicked that door wide open by allowing some of their products to be sold publicly through those avenues of purchase.


  • ratio
    ratio Member Posts: 3,701
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    What I'm getting at is not that supply houses are great, or even that some, even most, are crappy, but that the problem lies behind the counter, it's not the counter itself. It may be the case that supply houses draw crappy counter people even, but that is far from my experience; enough so that I feel obligated to express my experiences: courteous, able to help, willing to go above and beyond when circumstances warrant. It's not even a certain supply house around here. The electrical supply house I get my Fluke fix at sells to me at cost—and I'm not a big customer. I give them several K a year, maybe twice that if there's a big purchase! Even the crappy place is only crappy because I have to ask for the good price every time, they don't just automatically give it to me when I'm buying a personal tool. Everywhere else does that as soon as they see the Visa come out.

    Absolutely, vote with your dollars. I've left places for less. Heck, I haven't been back to the gas station at the end of my street for a decade because they wouldn't exchange a stale soda that was expired by nearly a year. I go out of my way to not shop there. It's changed hands two or three times since then even. But that's not all gas stations, nor even all Shell stations, it was the people at that Shell station.

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited April 2017
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    @ratio , I don't disagree with you and I know it's not all Supply houses. I have one, that I mentioned above, Pickrell Brothers that I couldn't ask for better service. They take people in the order they came into the store, HO or Pro alike. I have seen them offer assistance to HO's and Pro alike and they sell to me at the same price they sell to the Pros, discounts shown right on the invoice. They get my business and have for the past 10 or 15 years. They may not sell me thousands of dollars a year but they know that, over time, a loyal customer will spend thousands of dollars and that contributes to their bottom line. They have been in business, at the same location for over 90 years. Locally owned.
    You know what else I like about Pickrell Bros.? You go into a very large room, the counter is about 1/3 the way back into the room. On the customer side (the 1/3 area) they have a large selection of tools and misc items that you can brouse until you are ready to step up to the counter. They always have at least four counter people to handle customers. In the area behind the counter (the 2/3's space) they have about 8 to 10 desks where people are processing paperwork, invoices, pricing items, book keeping, most if not all of the back office activities. If they see they have more than two or three customers backing up waiting, one of those desk people leaves their desk and steps up to the counter to help someone and they all seem to know the business! Customers are never waiting more than three to five minutes and most of us take longer than that to see what's new in tools before we are even ready to step up to the counter.
    ratioCanucker
  • Dave0176
    Dave0176 Member Posts: 1,177
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    I'm not in love Johnstone either, don't get me wrong they have almost everything I'd need, but I'll pick and choose what to buy from them. If it's an AC replacement part and their close I'll use them. Most of the time I prefer to deal a local supply house that deals with the brands I'll be working on. A lot of times I'd rather deal the OEMs and funny but York gives me better pricing then Johnstone. Their tools are expensive except when there on sale.

    However they do seem to secure the best prices on refrigerant. R22 is astronomical now so at this point once I'm out of it it's gonna be R407C after the leaks are fixed.
    DL Mechanical LLC Heating, Cooling and Plumbing 732-266-5386
    NJ Master HVACR Lic# 4630
    Specializing in Steam Heating, Serving the residents of New Jersey
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/dl-mechanical-llc

    https://m.facebook.com/DL-Mechanical-LLC-315309995326627/?ref=content_filter

    I cannot force people to spend money, I can only suggest how to spend it wisely.......
  • newagedawn
    newagedawn Member Posts: 586
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    thats a metering device in that coil not a TXV
    didnt catch that yesterday, need to use superheat to get proper charge
    "The bitter taste of a poor install lasts far longer than the JOY of the lowest price"
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,923
    edited May 2017
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    > @newagedawn said:
    > thats a metering device in that coil not a TXV
    > didnt catch that yesterday, need to use superheat to get proper charge

    That was a stock photo I posted. Here's my actual Evap.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment