I get by with help from my friends.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Wouldn't be a chase for wiring, plumbing, steam pipes would it?

Nope.
No plumbing, no steam pipes and I highly doubt any wiring.

JUGHNE

When you remove a wall that is plaster & lath you end up with the wall plate at the ceiling. One could tear that off and risk breaking ceiling plaster and still have a plaster patch job.

If you leave the top plate and use it to support 1" or 2" X maybe 8" to create a beam, then wrap it in SR which is easier to finish than actual ceiling patching. Better looking finished job. Would blend in with the end wall sections also. IMO

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

When you remove a wall that is plaster & lath you end up with the wall plate at the ceiling. One could tear that off and risk breaking ceiling plaster and still have a plaster patch job.

If you leave the top plate and use it to support 1" or 2" X maybe 8" to create a beam, then wrap it in SR which is easier to finish than actual ceiling patching. Better looking finished job. Would blend in with the end wall sections also. IMO

Interesting point, except both rooms had sheetrock installed over the plaster. They also leveled the ceilings.

From what I saw inside the larger wall to the left, which encloses the B vent, the wall that was there wasn't traditional. 2x4's on the flat nailed right to the joist above. The guy that built the house was a carpenter, and it was done likely in the 1860s.


Most of the house is balloon framed, but best I can tell not entirely. In that, you can see the joists sitting on a 4x4 in the basement, but in the attic all you see is the top of a 2x4 top plate, not into the wall like is typical with balloon framing. The joists sit on this 2x4 with 16" centers. Then, there's another 2x4 notched into the top of the joists on the flat and the rafters sit on that 2x4, 24" on center. Apparently it works because it's still there but I'm not sure it was typical framing. There'a also no ridge board, the rafters just butt up against each other. Also, best I can tell judging by the smell, the framing is all cedar and it's all a reddish brown color when you drill into it. I could be wrong, but that's the best I could tell. I've never heard of anyone framing a house out of cedar, but who knows what kind of wood they had locally back then.

JUGHNE

Cedar would seem a really different choice.
In 1860 your part of the country had major forests available for construction, IIRC.

In 1860 in my part of the country, houses were being built out of Sod .

ratio

If there used to be a wall there, then there's probably a beam—or some approximation of one—up there. Whether or not it's necessary is the question. If the old wall was load-bearing then it's necessary (although it doesn't look like it's big enough to me). If the wall was not not load–bearing it's probably not necessary. What direction do the floor joists run, downstairs & up? Are there any walls upstairs sitting in the same location?

ChrisJ

ratio said:

If there used to be a wall there, then there's probably a beam—or some approximation of one—up there. Whether or not it's necessary is the question. If the old wall was load-bearing then it's necessary (although it doesn't look like it's big enough to me). If the wall was not not load–bearing it's probably not necessary. What direction do the floor joists run, downstairs & up? Are there any walls upstairs sitting in the same location?

Joists in basement run in same direction as beam.
Joists on second floor, as far as I know, run in the same direction as the beam, I suppose we'll find out this weekend. The two that ran along side the chimney certainly ran in the same direction.

There is a wall directly above on the second floor, nothing in the basement, so that wall was sitting on a joist on the first floor, nothing else.

ratio

Doesn't sound too structural, but as @JUGHNE mentioned, it's a common trim between ceilings of combined rooms. I've got one in my house, between the kitchen & dining room, the old plate is still there.

A quick dusting with a paddle bit will show you the interior construction. It's always possible that someone though it looked good that way & did it intentionally.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

JUGHNE said:

When you remove a wall that is plaster & lath you end up with the wall plate at the ceiling. One could tear that off and risk breaking ceiling plaster and still have a plaster patch job.

If you leave the top plate and use it to support 1" or 2" X maybe 8" to create a beam, then wrap it in SR which is easier to finish than actual ceiling patching. Better looking finished job. Would blend in with the end wall sections also. IMO

Interesting point, except both rooms had sheetrock installed over the plaster. They also leveled the ceilings.

From what I saw inside the larger wall to the left, which encloses the B vent, the wall that was there wasn't traditional. 2x4's on the flat nailed right to the joist above. The guy that built the house was a carpenter, and it was done likely in the 1860s.


Most of the house is balloon framed, but best I can tell not entirely. In that, you can see the joists sitting on a 4x4 in the basement, but in the attic all you see is the top of a 2x4 top plate, not into the wall like is typical with balloon framing. The joists sit on this 2x4 with 16" centers. Then, there's another 2x4 notched into the top of the joists on the flat and the rafters sit on that 2x4, 24" on center. Apparently it works because it's still there but I'm not sure it was typical framing. There'a also no ridge board, the rafters just butt up against each other. Also, best I can tell judging by the smell, the framing is all cedar and it's all a reddish brown color when you drill into it. I could be wrong, but that's the best I could tell. I've never heard of anyone framing a house out of cedar, but who knows what kind of wood they had locally back then.

Your framing species is Douglas fir which also has a red hue to it. Cedar is to soft to use as a structural framing species.

Douglass fir is a superior structural grade wood species.

Gordy

Chris are you not tearing out what ever it is, and running duct Then framing out the ductwork? So you basically end up with the same look.

ChrisJ

@Gordy

The framing smells of Cedar as well when I drill into it, that's what made me think of it in the first place. Douglass Fir smells absolutely nothing like Cedar. The clapboard also has the same smell and color. If it smelled like a Christmas tree I'd agree. Of course, I could be mistaken, but that's what my nose told me.


No, the alleged false beam is to be torn out, patched in smooth and a 12x12 diffuser installed to cover both rooms. The diffuser will not work with a beam there. That 7" drop is a buzz kill for the Coandă Effect.

ratio

We actually took out all the interior walls at a little place we have. The ceiling was trusses (it's only one story), with a 26' long 2x4 across the bottom. Going from plaster & lath to ½" drywall reduced the static load IIRC, but in any case we were well within design limits for all the species I checked.

Imagine trying to buy a 26' long 2x4 today. Is that even possible?

ChrisJ

ratio said:

We actually took out all the interior walls at a little place we have. The ceiling was trusses (it's only one story), with a 26' long 2x4 across the bottom. Going from plaster & lath to ½" drywall reduced the static load IIRC, but in any case we were well within design limits for all the species I checked.

Imagine trying to buy a 26' long 2x4 today. Is that even possible?

I assume you could if you go to a mill and request it, no?

ratio

Probably. I'm quite sure they'd try and sell you a finger-jointed board first though, or maybe a microlam of some kind. That kind of lumber doesn't just grow on trees any more.

Worked in a bldg a few years back, was 8"x12" solid oak beams throughout. Impressive.

EBEBRATT-Ed

hate to over simplify but if there was a wall there and you know the floor has been patched then it looks like they kept the upper part of the wall (the beam) maybe to avoid having to patch the ceiling. And maybe to as @Gordy said define the two spaces.

ChrisJ

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

hate to over simplify but if there was a wall there and you know the floor has been patched then it looks like they kept the upper part of the wall (the beam) maybe to avoid having to patch the ceiling. And maybe to as @Gordy said define the two spaces.

Nope, it appears solid wood on both sides and bottom. I expected it to be framed with 2x4s, no such luck.

My dad asked me to have quite a bit of stuff on hand, apparently he's expecting the worst just in case.

Gordy

Escape route

BobC

i remember opening a wall in my sisters 1860's farmhouse and finding a 8" wide board being used as a stud. We intended to remove this non load bearing wall to open the room up but decided to double check just in case. We remeasured things in the basement and then the second floor and verified it was a non load bearing wall.

When we tore the rest of the plaster off the wall that 8" wide rough pine 2X was a little over 2" wide at the top. They used anything they could lay their hands on back then.

The old part of the cellar was a forest of cedar poles about 3 ft apart holding up split trees that were used as floor joists with 1X8 rough pine as the subfloor and wide pine as the finished floor. The wiring in the place was really "interesting", I must have put 3 or 4 coils of romex and a new breaker panel in that place.

Bob

Bob

Canucker

You're right to be cautious @ChrisJ My current home is a testament to the forgiving nature of the building code. It may have been built properly to start, but it was not right when I moved in and started looking behind the walls. Not a thought given to where the weight would be supported once a bearing wall was moved. Between that, the random nature of electrical feeds and the "whatever I have in my hand" fastener philosophy, I'm surprised that the house didn't collapse or burn down long before I moved in. I haven't covered the ceiling in the basement yet, I should post some pics of the interesting method they used to try and level it

EBEBRATT-Ed

Just like steam systems that work but are not 'textbook", house building has evolved. My house a 5 room ranch built in 1955, you would think that is a "modern" house as far as framing goes. It's pretty solid but there are things that weren't framed right.

ChrisJ

Updated duct layout drawing.
After carrying the 14" pipe up to the attic I realized things weren't quite as long as I expected.

It's actually going to take effort to squeeze 5 foot of flex duct in there to each drop. For what I had planned, the connections were only a foot long if that, no good. I have plenty of room, just not the way I had planned it.




Here's an interesting chart on flex duct.

ChrisJ

It's gone.

My parents just left.





Last night I made up the return flex connector before bed.

Gordy

False beam eh?

ChrisJ

This is the return plenum.
The flex connector will be installed once it's in the attic.







All cut up and siliconed and taped. All joints are siliconed on the inside, and taped on the outiside.

It won't leak. I also had it professionally inspected.

ChrisJ

Cutting the few remaining drops in horsehair plaster.

Preparing to cut 8x8 supply opening.



Installed 10x10 return. All that is needed is a bead of white silicone and the filter grill.



Zero cracks, smudges or any other damage to the 140+ year old plaster.

Rotozip + 1/8" tile bits to cut plaster, followed by 1/8" wood bit to cut lath. It's slow, but it does the job. Keep shop vac hose right by tool the entire time.

The plywood is to trace around using the foot of the tool.

Dave0176

Chris you've installed a steam boiler and now a ducted AC system welcome to my world. Btw nice job!!

hot_rod

Remember some of that old "horsehair" plaster has arsenic in it. Arsenic was used to remove the hair from the hides, once upon a time.

ChrisJ

Dave0176 said:

Chris you've installed a steam boiler and now a ducted AC system welcome to my world. Btw nice job!!

You, and others like you all have my respect.
This isn't fun.

I used to assume forced air guys had it easy, I was wrong.

@hot rod Perhaps, but so do apples. I don't know much about it, but I'm assuming arsenic is released by your body therefore in small levels it is harmless?

BobC

I admire your willingness to tackle this type of work.

Arsenic is concentrated by the body so you have to take care.

Just get some old lace and all will be well.

Bob

JUGHNE

And be sure you trust whomever makes your coffee or tea

ChrisJ

"Arsenic does not build up in the body, according to Dartmouth. It can leave the system in a day or two, once consumption stops."

After doing a few quick searches I'm more afraid of rice now

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

And be sure you trust whomever makes your coffee or tea

Speaking of old movies, this one is still great.

hot_rod

ChrisJ said:

"Arsenic does not build up in the body, according to Dartmouth. It can leave the system in a day or two, once consumption stops."



After doing a few quick searches I'm more afraid of rice now

I remember reading about the old plaster in a JLC article years ago, probably the least of your chemical worries these days. Never hurts to wear a respirator when working with old products that contain asbestos etc. May be no worse then the chemicals that China puts in our consumer products

I've heard that asbestos will be taken off the EPA warning list? The residence of Libby, Montana will be concerned to hear that news. I lived near Libby years ago when that was going down. Get those miners back to work.

https://www.asbestos.com/jobsites/libby/

ChrisJ

Slow moving right now, the wife ended up in the hospital for a few days which delayed things and I haven't been feeling the best.

The plaster ceiling I was afraid of damaging. Still spotless.






Started siliconing the elbows in my free time. Far from perfect, but they're sealed.

njtommy

Slow and steady wins the race. Looking good.

ChrisJ

Terminal block setup for system.
This will be an enclosure with multiple DIN mounted terminal blocks for each item. The air handler and thermostat blocks are double height so the green is for the thermostat. The colors in the actual device will be different.

The drawing may be hard to follow, it was just to get my thoughts down on paper. Ok, fake paper.

ChrisJ

Here's the actual box, ready to be wired when I have a quiet night.





The attic is getting a bit..........smaller?

ChrisJ

This was from late last week when I finally got the return plenum hung.

ChrisJ

Vacuumed last night and gave up at 100 microns. It may have pulled lower, but it was getting really late and it sat there forever. After shutting the valves and pump off it crept up to 120 microns and stabilized.

ratio

Please, please, please pull that stoopid yaller sticker off the condenser, before it gets baked on & you're stuck with a ratty–looking AC. Good looking job though. Ritchie bender?

ChrisJ

ratio said:

Please, please, please pull that stoopid yaller sticker off the condenser, before it gets baked on & you're stuck with a ratty–looking AC. Good looking job though. Ritchie bender?

Thank you for the compliment.

I started peeling it off last night while waiting for the vacuum pump, but gave up. I think I need to hit it with the heat gun to soften the glue.

Yep, Ritchie / YJ crossbow bender.

Most of my stuff is from them, though I'm really really disappointed in the valve core removal tool. It caused me hell last night and may have taken a few years off my life when I couldn't get the core back in, and then dropped the core inside the tool.