Any pointers?

Ironman

The Dunkirk version of this boiler is identical to the Utica except they turned it 180* and used 2 1/2" tappings. The Utica version has 2" tappings.

We just did a job where we ended up with the Dunkirk version instead of the Utica which we planned on. I had already gotten 2" fittings and pipe for the risers because that's what the Utica version called for. When I called the factory, they said the 2" was fine. They couldn't give me a good reason why they tapped the Dunkirk with 2 1/2" other than that's the way it had always been.

The boiler works fine with 2" risers. Here's a thread on it:
http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/161136/replacement-for-the-lightray-furnace

Here's the pipe sizing chart from the installation manual:

Steamhead

That diagram is actually for the latest version of the Utica, not the Dunkirk. The Dunkirk manual, including the piping diagram, can be downloaded here:

http://www.dunkirk.com/products/boilers-gas/psb-series-ii

Note that on the page just before the diagrams, it says:

"8. Steam riser(s) and header shall be 2½” pipe size."

I would think this carries more weight than someone on the phone who may or may not be familiar with these units.

Ironman

Steamhead said:

That diagram is actually for the latest version of the Utica, not the Dunkirk. The Dunkirk manual, including the piping diagram, can be downloaded here:

http://www.dunkirk.com/products/boilers-gas/psb-series-ii

Note that on the page just before the diagrams, it says:

"8. Steam riser(s) and header shall be 2½” pipe size."

I would think this carries more weight than someone on the phone who may or may not be familiar with these units.

I know it's from the Utica version: that was my point.

I've been involved with ECR and their engineering department for a long time - even to the point of being brought in to give input on the design of their mod/con. I wouldn't make the assumption that I can't get someone on the phone who knows their product.

Anyone who knows me or who's followed my posts knows that I always point them to what the install manual says. This was a rare exception and only after knowing that both boilers are the same product and consulting the engineering department.

@SeanBeans came on here happy to post his first steamer. Though I don't think it was intentional, he received a good bit of criticism about it, as we're prone to do. My intention was to show him that in THIS CASE any concern about the 2" risers was not necessary.

@SeanBeans:
Good work considering all your constraints. Keeping coming here; you'll learn a lot from these pros. They are the most knowledgeable around.

SeanBeans

Thanks @Steamhead and @Ironman !

Ive been spying on this forum for a while now and you guys are legends haha.

I was expecting criticism, considering i was already criticizing myself lolol.

Going back to skim her soon, homeowner cancelled today because she got called in to work.

Do you guys have any other answers to the some of the questions i posted earlier as well?

Thanks a bunch!

nicholas bonham-carter

Show the owner how to do the skimming herself, as it seems that there can be a second wave of oil washing down in a couple of weeks. The more she knows, the happier she will be, maybe able to diagnose future problems, such as a plugged pigtail.--NBC

Steamhead

Ironman said:

I know it's from the Utica version: that was my point.

I've been involved with ECR and their engineering department for a long time - even to the point of being brought in to give input on the design of their mod/con. I wouldn't make the assumption that I can't get someone on the phone who knows their product.

Anyone who knows me or who's followed my posts knows that I always point them to what the install manual says. This was a rare exception and only after knowing that both boilers are the same product and consulting the engineering department.

In that case, how do they explain the discrepancy between the manual and what they told you on the phone? "that's the way it had always been" isn't what we need. There had to be a reason for specifying 2-1/2" pipe.

What I can tell you is that in our experience, these Dunkirk (and Utica) steamers do not like undersized piping at all. Every single time we've repiped one, it has worked much better.

SeanBeans

Unfortunately its like 70 degrees in jersey so i doubt the boiler has even ran much since its been put in.

Steamhead

So, how many of these boilers have you repiped, if any? And what were the results? ?

Steamhead

If you read, understand and follow the manufacturer's instructions, you don't have to calculate velocity.

Think about it. Manufacturers want to sell boilers. They are not going to sell boilers for any length of time if their boilers don't produce dry steam when piped properly. This is why they test their boilers to see what minimum pipe sizes will work, then include this information in their I&O manuals. All you have to do is Read The Freakin' Manual.

I'm sure you've scrutinized our install pictures, and if so, you've noticed that our steamers are all installed using the manufacturer's instructions as a minimum specification. Let's see some of your install pics.

Tinman

I taught HVAC at a local community college and we used the latest edition of the most popular, and best, hvac text book out there. I was told by my boss to teach from the text book without deviating too far from the information within those pages. That's when and where the problems between us began. There were errors in the text book that most people missed, including my boss, and he wanted me to teach that until I proved him wrong. I continued teaching what was true as I took my responsibility seriously. Luckily, the errors were corrected in subsequent editions.

My point is that is if you have BOTH the ability to read and a wealth of experience to go along with that, you're way ahead in the game. My boss had very little hands on experience compared to me and, as a result, he was teaching misinformation to students who were at his mercy. I refused to toe his line of what he believed to be truth just because he read it in a text book. So, over and over again, I was constantly forced to prove to him through other sources or real world experience (that I could prove in the lab) why I taught the way I taught.

Tim, my son-in-law, is constantly asking me why I do things the way I do things in a somewhat condenscending tone which bothers me to no end. My answer can sometimes be as short as just do it because I'm dialed in on getting the job done. It gives him time to think about it and he often has the "ahh" moment where nothing else needs to be said. But if it does, I'll tell him why and add that his entire 2 plus years of experience should not make him cocky.

My hands-on experience has taught me the hard way over and over and over again what works and what doesn't. It's a method of learning that hammers the truth home. I'm with Steamhead.

SeanBeans

My manager said the skim has to be done the day of the install(so im free to do another the next day) i think he may be surprised when im there skimming this booler for a full 8 hour work day.

And if i was in charge of payong for parts id go back and repipe it... but then again if i was i charge of payong for the parts then it would have been done in 2.5 the first time around.

BobC

Bosses like that can be a PITA but they are the boss, hopefully he will learn it actually saves money to do it right the first time.

It might be worth showing the homeowner how to skim so they have some skin in the game, many are willing to do something like that once they understand what effects it can have on system operation.

Bob

KC_Jones

When I detailed cars for a living I had a boss with the "my way or the highway" attitude. He wasn't around too much so I was free to do the work the way I saw fit. He caught me one day and basically said do it my way or you are fired. I told him that's fine, tomorrow I have 2 buff jobs scheduled, you take one I take the other and we will see who's looks better and which customer is happier. Well I won, he even admitted it. Also I did it in the same amount of time that he did, which was his primary concern. After that he started listening more. Sometimes people have to be shown the path, boss or not.

The best boss is a good listener.

Jamie Hall

It's always amazing to me how forgiving steam -- particularly if the pressures are kept right -- can be. Yes, there are better ways to do a lot of things, and sometimes even a best way, but... it's still amazing!

On the mismatched lengths on the swing joints -- it shouldn't make much difference. Maybe -- again -- not the best thing to do, but with relatively short pipe lengths, not to worry.