Any pointers?

SeanBeans

First double drop header that ive been able to pull off.. does anyone have any pointers for the next time? Thanks, love that steam

SeanBeans

Wow totally forgot to post the pictures, first timer here. Lololol

SeanBeans

SeanBeans

this was the atrocity when i showed up...

KC_Jones

Looks like you used bushings on outlets, that's a no no on this style boiler and according to the manual.

STEAM DOCTOR

What size boiler? What size header and boiler piping?

STEAM DOCTOR

Not big fan of side outlet boilers.

JUGHNE

I would say a good job.
You can skim off to either side thru the tees.
If that is like the Lennox/Dunkirk boiler I have seen the top push nipples are a lot smaller than the 2 1/2 outlet.
So if you flow water out of the 2 1/2" port most of the water will come from the closet section.
For the one I had I put a reducer to 1 1/2" for the skim port out of the tee. This way the water in the boiler has to rise higher and float oil out of each section rather than the first/closest section. Does that make sense?

JUGHNE

Yea, I see the bushings now. So the risers are 2" then.
Otherwise good plan....but as they have said......
Old eyes here.

SeanBeans

The company i work for doesnt stock 2.5 inch pipe or fittings... seems crazy to me considering the book sayd you cant reduce down at the outlets. Its a 225k btu lennox GSB.

Not having 2 1/2 available at the start of the job made me go with 2 2inch risers

SeanBeans

What about the lengths of the nipples connected to the swing joints? Does it matter if one is extra long and the other is short? The swing joint on looker's left has an 18inch and a 4 inch nipples, while the riser on the right only has an 8in nipple.

ChrisJ

SeanBeans said:

The company i work for doesnt stock 2.5 inch pipe or fittings... seems crazy to me considering the book sayd you cant reduce down at the outlets. Its a 225k btu lennox GSB.



Not having 2 1/2 available at the start of the job made me go with 2 2inch risers

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

You read the manufacturer's instructions, understood them, and yet bushed the tappings down anyway?

You can always go bigger than they say, but never smaller.

The boiler must be repiped otherwise it will never perform as well as it should and it'll both cost the customer money in fuel as well as most likely their warranty.

KC_Jones

ChrisJ said:

SeanBeans said:

The company i work for doesnt stock 2.5 inch pipe or fittings... seems crazy to me considering the book sayd you cant reduce down at the outlets. Its a 225k btu lennox GSB.



Not having 2 1/2 available at the start of the job made me go with 2 2inch risers

I'm sorry, I don't understand.

You read the manufacturer's instructions, understood them, and yet bushed the tappings down anyway?

You can always go bigger than they say, but never smaller.

The boiler must be repiped otherwise it will never perform as well as it should and it'll both cost the customer money in fuel as well as most likely their warranty.

^^^^^that. If something happens the manufacturer could point at those bushings and void the warranty.

I am sure the supply house had plenty of 2 1/2" fittings.

ChrisJ

Don't get me wrong.
I know time is money and sometimes you need to get the job done and get out of there, but you can never go below the minimum specifications.

This is no different than an appliance calling for a minimum size vent or gas line.

Tinman

Sean is also at the mercy of the company he works for.

Kahooli

It looks like the header is 2-1/2 or 3. So where'd those come from?

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

Sean is also at the mercy of the company he works for.

Also true, but he asked for pointers.

Kahooli said:

It looks like the header is 2-1/2 or 3. So where'd those come from?

Looking at one picture, it kind of looks like that, but if you look at the others they all look the same size.

JUGHNE

I think I can see 2 1/2" on the header tees. The header is all pre cut nipples?
Maybe the company doesn't have threader larger than 2".
They come up with 2 1/2" fittings and short nipples.

Paul48

@ChrisJ .........Got any pictures of carpenters with bloody foreheads, because they don't have hammers?

ChrisJ

Paul48 said:

@ChrisJ .........Got any pictures of carpenters with bloody foreheads, because they don't have hammers?

If that's a joke it went way over my head.

JUGHNE

The ideal situation would be if Sean could monitor the operation of this boiler from time to time and enquire to the HO concerning operation.
I understand in the city this will most likely not be possible.
I have easy access or usually keys to all buildings that have boilers I have ever worked on and actually make visits on by own time
These include many unorthodox piping set ups that ignore the piping diagrams and perform satisfactorily. Re-piping could perhaps improve performance by some degree. But these involve 4" & 6" pipe that has been there for decades and I am not going to even suggest change.....lowering operating pressure has improved all of these systems BTW.

Fred

Just seems like if a company won't accommodate any piping needs above 2" that they'd simply refuse the job. At the end of the day, any long term consequences from that decision will be borne by this homeowner. Nice looking install but not right because it is bushed down, especially on a side tapped boiler.

ChrisJ

@Steamhead How do you feel this boiler will perform?

SeanBeans

i edited the pictures because i didn't want to show the company name freely.

the risers are 2 inch and the header is 2 1/2

@Stephen Minnich is right.
I'm currently working on getting 2 1/2 stock in the steam trays that they give us.. its very tough getting stock at my company.

@Fred I inquired about doing this job and previous jobs in 2 1//2 for the reasons everyone said, that it would void warranty, and was told that they just use 2 inch...

@Paul48 i think what your trying to say is if the carpenter didn't have a hammer he would go buy a hammer?

SeanBeans

and trust me guys even though it may have looked nice when i left, i still wished i had everything i needed in 2 1/2 to do the job the right way. i just started working at this company not too long ago so I'm still light on my feet. we don't have threaders here, hence the couplings.

but while i have you guys here i was hoping some other questions could be answered..

1. will the 2 risers (including the drop) compensate for the bushed tappings? this was the first time these guys saw someone utilize both tappings let alone drop them back down.

2. does it matter that one swing joint has 20 inches of pipe compared the right side which only has 8?

3. is it a huge deal running a water line in black steel pipe like that?

4. correct height for water feeder? if not where would you suggest?

5.... ill think of more!

Fred

@SeanBeans , from my perspective, the boiler warranty is a seperate issue (but possibly an issue). My concern is that when you bush those tappings down, you create steam velocity that makes for wet steam and that will affect how the system functions. In a side tapping boiler, it also tends to create unstable water in the boiler. In addition to down sizing the risers out of the boiler, the Header should always be one size larger that the risers out of the boiler and that header should probably be a 3" header because the risers were intended to be 2.5".

SeanBeans

> @STEAM DOCTOR said:
> Not big fan of side outlet boilers.


nor i

STEAM DOCTOR

What size boiler? Btw, what you have now is infinitely better than it's predecessor

SeanBeans

@STEAM DOCTOR Lennox GSB8-225k

JUGHNE

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This is a GSB8 225E or PSB-7D Lennox--225,000 BTUH input, I believe the same boiler but from 1999 or 2000.
I did not install this but found it as such. It is piped with one
2 -1/2" side outlet. The manual states riser(s) and header shall be 2 1/2", recommends 2 risers but not mandatory.
You can see the welded header with a single 3" riser...note the water pocket below the riser....concentric equalizer connection.
The first 5' of steam main is counterflow also......

This has no water hammer even with all the piping flaws.
The steam seems to be dry, system quiet. Being a 2 pipe vapor system running on ounces may help overcome these issues.

I felt accomplished to just get the 14 YO 2 1/2 plug out of the tee for skimming. (Kroil, hammering, torch and 3' wrenches with cheaters).....later added the 1 1/2" reducer for skimming as I stated above. To correct the header would have been a hard item to sell considering it appeared to have no problems.

Sean, your double 2" outlets will move more steam than this single 2 1/2". The point being that sometimes things will work out with flaws built in.
Yes, it should have been by the book but if your company does not have the tools for the job you have to work with what you have. Your company can purchase cut to length 2 1/2" nipples from somewhere. Being new there it is usually wise to not rock the boat right away.
You are wise to enquire here for advice.
Hopefully you stick with your interest in steam and keep learning, there are probably some boiler shops looking for someone who reads the books.

rbeck

Looks like the Harford loop may also be too low or an optical illusion.

SeanBeans

@rbeck lennox asks for 6inches below the water line i feel it always looks low to me as well

SeanBeans

@JUGHNE I've been hooked on steam for a few years now but finally this winter I've had the freedom to call the shots on the steam jobs. TLAOSH and this site have taught me pretty much everything i know so far. I'm dreaming about a job like
@Ironman 's church megasteam project, but maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself... lolol

JUGHNE

Does your boiler have this sticker at the sight glass?
That may explain why the HL connection should be so low.
The water content must be pretty low.
How much below the sight glass do you know where water level is......like a gas gauge in your car that only goes down to 1/4 tank, no empty is shown.

SeanBeans

@JUGHNE it has both of those stickers

HVACNUT

I don't have too much steam by me. I've done steam installs and service in my 30+ years, but I have never seen risers do a 180 back down into the header and have seen it a couple times since I joined the forum. Are these manufacturer near boiler piping specs or field modifications? Limited height?

JUGHNE

Drop headers are highly applauded here. The added height has the water fall out of the steam. Easier install with the extra swing capability. Some install manuals show them as an option.

SeanBeans

@HVACNUT i haven't seen any drop headers in any manufacturer near boiler piping specs..

i don't think there is a limited height either.. the higher you go the drier the steam.

the other guys might be able to clue us in to something we're not aware of though..

JUGHNE

Someone here posted a page out of an I&O manual for a particular manufacturer that showed drop headers as an option.

And maybe someone can answer your question concerning the length of the horizontal pipes being of a different length connecting the risers to the 90's that drop down to the headers.....curious also.

KC_Jones

Burnham shows it in their Megasteam manual for sure. Crown actually offers drop header piping kits if one wants.

http://www.velocityboilerworks.com/product/steam-boiler-piping-kits/

Steamhead

ChrisJ said:

@Steamhead How do you feel this boiler will perform?

Not well. Those undersized steam outlets and risers are a major problem on these Dunkirk-built boilers. I don't know of any other boiler that is so sensitive to bad piping.

If that company insists on 2-inch risers, they should look at the Force boilers that Ferguson sells. These are rebadged Crown boilers but the price is better.