Please help check the piping of this new installation

swvawethead

Hello - after reading Dan's "Pumping Away" and "How Come" many years ago finally got my chance at putting things to practice during this gas boiler install that replaced a 1950s era Arcoliner.
Hired an installer who sold us the system but I requested change to the original pumping scheme to pumping away.
Looks like the image attachments got split up but hope they provide enough detail.





Anyway, I am confused over some of the details such as where they placed the expansion tank.
Also confused a bit over the the pressure reducing valve, which I assume is also serves as an auto fill and it has fast fill lever. (There is a shutoff upstream not shown in the pictures.)
As the pictures show I've been able to shut off the boiler supply to the circulators and open each zone and pushing water through the pipes, into the boiler and out the supply to a hose bib installed before the shutoff.
Now is the time to correct the plumbing while they are still working on the installation.
I had to ask them to install isolation valves under the circulators which they omitted and was able to accommodate my request. I was grateful for that and the crew has been great to work with.
There was also the issue of using PEX lines ( without oxygen barrier) for splicing the new system to the original pipe runs to the convector zones. They took them out and used all copper runs.
I've been having some issues filling the upstairs zone - keep hearing the water flowing as if it not completely filling the pipes and I will ask specific questions about the pressure reducing valve with the fast fill lever and also the pressure gauge readings. There are three bleeders in the upstairs zone and three bypass loops are set in the middle for flowing water through both pipes. Thank you for looking and helping.

swvawethead

Last picture shows the backflow preventer. For some reason they used red pex for the city water supply but I can live with that. The blank stub out is for an indirect after recovering from the expense of this boiler install. Taco zone controller has one more spot with priority switch.

swvawethead

Forgot to mention I've been filling each zone at a time using the boiler supply shutoff and opening the drain installed upstream from the shutoff and after water fills the boiler and rises out of it.
Hose connected to the drain and into a bucket to observe air bubbles.

swvawethead

Whoops, one more mention.
The gas service is not connected but circulators and thermostats are completed and functioning. Not sure if circulators can play a role in pushing air during fill. I understand cold water holds more air and can be released during heating operation and can be eliminated by the separator.

swvawethead

Asked them to save me some room right rear corner of the boiler to possibly accommodate an indirect tank in the future.

Zman

They did a lot of things right. pumping away and expansion tank locations look good, it looks like it will be easy to purge.

My eyes have trouble with the red pex and all the zip ties, it doesn't effect the function just a personal peeve.

The exhaust flue and the location of the damper could use a closer look. Maybe post a picture and or double check the manual on that.

swvawethead

Thank you Zman for taking a look. Was not 100% sure about the height of the expansion tank and the air separator.
I could tidy up some of the details you pointed out, such as the red pex swapped out for blue and the zip ties. Luckily there are enough isolation valves to make swapping the pex line not much of a problem.
I will post an image of the damper.
I do have a question - during the boiler producing heat and circulators running the air eliminator will do its thing. Slightly unscrew the schrader valve for allowing it to release the air?
How does the fill valve add makeup water during this process if the system pressure does not drop below 12 psi?

swvawethead

Here are pictures of the damper. Field Controls GVD-5. Instruction says not position sensitive. However it mentions not to mount it directly above or below (?) to avoid excessive heat. It appears to be mounted straight up at 12 o'clock. Also there si no draft hood but there is no mention of this in the Buderus install manual. I think they should have gone up a little higher before punching through the chimney wall. "We suggest 1:00 to 5:00 or 7:00 to 11:00 o'clock positions. A minimum of 6" between the device and combustible construction shall be maintained."

swvawethead

Seems to me the opening where the damper control rod enters the pipe is just an open hole where exhaust could rise through.
Would it be better for it to be mounted underneath the pipe?
And I am used to seeing these dampers mounted on vertical pipes.

swvawethead

The manual also illustrates on a horizontal pipe installation another reason not to mount it vertical. The pivot point inside the pipe could be susceptible to being exposed to condensation.
Thus the suggestion to tilt the install at 1 or 11 o clock to move the pivot point to 5 or 7 position. Wouldn't it be better to just rotate the motor at 3 or 9 position?

swvawethead

Ok...looks like they did not follow Buderus instructions. The vent damper is actually packaged with the boiler. And it is suppose mount directly to the open draft hood on the boiler, which would orient the gas vent damper tube vertically. The vent tube from that point would need to rise 1/4" per foot to the brick chimney opening and connect to the stainless steel flue liner.
Instead of punching another hole higher up in the chimney the crew simply enlarged the hole on the upper side.
I will have to ask them to correct this.

Paul48

You want to be able to isolate the boiler from pressure, to be able to power purge the zones ( may be north of 30 psi). The boiler drain and ball valve over the boiler need to swap positions. That allows you to run a hose from a sill cock to that boiler drain and run a hose from the other, out on the lawn, and not have to worry about your relief valve dumping. I don't particularly like the boiler drain over the boiler, but it will be lightly used. Put a brass hose-bib cap on it.

Paul48

If any of your zones are split loops, you'll need a way to balance them.

swvawethead

Paul48 - thank you. Let me work through your description of the piping which sort of makes sense. Information overloaded.
The boiler drain kind of ended up there because the installers decided to run the supply out of the boiler that way. Would have preferred the run be higher above the boiler. And there is the factory drain on lower back side.
I will use your suggestion to cap the hose bib.

The main floor unfortunately is a split loop...supply runs under the floor to one side of the house where it splits to go left for the bedroom/bath and to the right to the livingroom and kitchen.
There actually was a third loop that dropped downstairs that we split out as a third zone.
Unfortunately when the old pipes, flow checks, etc were removed part of that were several balancing valves that were leaching.

Please let me know if the ball valves they installed on each of the two return lines will maybe serve the purpose. The two return lines reemerge from upstairs and after the ball valves join to one pipe to the boiler return. But I don't think ball valves are made for balancing the flow.

swvawethead

Here is the compromise solution to the vent damper I thought did not look quite right. They rotated it so the motor is off to the side and this after installer checking with Bosch about installing it on a horizontal run.

swvawethead

re - The boiler drain and ball valve over the boiler need to swap positions. That allows you to run a hose from a sill cock to that boiler drain and run a hose from the other, out on the lawn,

I am being dense here so please forgive me.
"run a hose from the other, out on the lawn."
The 'other' - the factory drain on lower back?

swvawethead

Paul48 - it makes sense to power purge without being concerned about the relief popping and there might be a way to do this for one of the zones that has a ball valve on the return just above the boiler. Upstream from the ball valve is a tee that was added for a future fourth zone return and we installed a hose bib there.

With the current setup I was opening the fast fill and watching the pressure rise to maybe 20-25 psi before opening the hose bib to force out the air.
Is it normal for the pressure to drop to zero after opening the hose bib even with the fast fill open? The water does flow more forcefully.

Paul48

This is for the purposes of power purging. It allows you to close 2 valves, and isolate the boiler. You have a boiler drain over the boiler, and one on the return. Close the 2 valves.....Put a hose from a sill cock to the boiler drain over the boiler. Run another hose from the boiler drain on the return to dump on the lawn. Open the valve on the zone you want to power purge, then open the sill cock and purge at domestic water pressure. Make sense? Use 2 globe valves on the returns from the split loops for balancing. The adjustment of ball valves is too coarse.

swvawethead

Paul48 - I think I can somewhat achieve what you suggested.

Shut off 1 and 3.
Open 2 and drain from there.
This means I will use the fast fill instead of filling from a sill cock.
I suppose the boiler itself can be fully filled with no problem afterwards.

What do you think?

Paul48

That'll work. As long as you can create flow in one direction, and you can. You might have a problem with purging the split loop, unless you valve off each section of the loop, one at a time. Unfortunately, once you balance the split loop, the last thing you want to do is play with the valve settings.

swvawethead

re - Use 2 globe valves on the returns from the split loops for balancing. The adjustment of ball valves is too coarse.

To be honest I will need to learn about globe vs. ball valve.
They ball valves for isolation/shutoffs and I am assuming those are correct.
The same were used for the two return split loops and I asked the supervisor and he assured me they would work.
Hopefully he will be accommodating when asked about this.

Will post pictures of the old balancing valves and the replacement ball valves.

swvawethead

re - Unfortunately, once you balance the split loop, the last thing you want to do is play with the valve settings.

I am confused about this - play with which valve settings?

I read about globe valves and got more familiar with the workings.
As you mentioned It is better suited for throttling flow but restrictive which is understandable based on the diagrams of the internals.

I cannot find the removed sections that had the leaching and green covered old balancing valves.
Are the old ones globe valves internally?
In other threads folks mention these problem prone balancing valves that seem to eventually leach.

Are there more modern versions of balancing valves that are used for split loops that are difficult to split into separate zones?

Paul48

When you purge the split loop, you will want to close one part off at a time. Balancing with the valves is somewhat tedious. Once you get it, you want to leave it alone. But if the only way you have to shut part of the split loop off to purge it, you have no choice. You probably had Watts balancing valves, and they are a butterfly valve.

lchmb

Couple things..make sure the pressure relief valve get's piped to within 6" of the floor. Not a fan of the location of the zone control. Just a personal thing but I hate having something with power located under a replaceable water part. Also not a fan of having the unions on the supply/return. They arent really needed and just create another leak point that will cause issues...imho..

Ironman

The strainer on the return is installed wrong: the direction of flow should be towards the boiler and the basket should be at 6 o'clock, not 12 o'clock.

swvawethead

Paul48, Ichmb, Ironman.

Thank you for the replies.

The butterfly valve, further explaining the balancing is very helpful.
Yes, the return shutoffs in the split loop will be used individually to force air out of the split loops. The original install has a spot on the convector section at the end of one of the split loops (before dropping back downstairs) that was plugged instead of a bleeder. Needed or not I will add one.
As for balancing the split loop, I will keep the ball valves for future draining/refilling/purging. Add a flow control before or after those valves. Now I need to look up butterfly valves.

Yes, the pressure relief will have a PVC down pipe added and aimed to the floor. They also have to add one to the backflow preventer that was installed inline to the city water feed line is running along the ceiling. Not sure why it has a relief outlet.

The union - funny you mention that. The one on the supply pipe did have a seepage and had to be refitted. I will have to keep a watch on that and did comment to the crew it would be nice to have additional unions in the plumbing sections. I may get to that later.

As for the zone control...we stood in front of the setup and tossed about where to mount it. I take part of the blame for that location but do agree with you about it being mounted under the pumps.
I should be able to handle moving it to another spot.

Paul48

Search Watts HBV

lchmb

pressure relief valve should be piped to the floor with copper not pvc...

hot_rod

The correct way to balance hydronics is with a balance valve. There are all types and price ranges. The main difference between a globe and balance valve if the balance valve provides a means to read flow rate. Some brands have the readouts built onto the valve, others require a gauge be used to get a reading.

In a perfect world you would have a design that tells how many gpm is needed in the various loops. Without that it will be trial and error to balance the system.
Or do a calculation to determine the correct flow rate.

With manual balance valves they are set with all zones running, if one zone or more shut off the flow rate will change in the remaining loop regardless of where you set it.

A pressure independent balance valve corrects for zones closing and assures you always get exact flow.

An example of both types.

Paul48

Those flowcals look pretty cool. Who sells them and keeps a stock of cartridges?

Paul S_3

@Paul48 i purchased a few from supplyhouse.com.....but now i just get them from my local plumbing supply

Paul48

OK....they stock all the cartridges too?

swvawethead

Ichmb - I will make sure to have them use copper for the pressure relief down pipe - Thank you for point that out.

Hotrod - Thank you and I will need to spend time studying and understanding the information. The the split loop in question is off a single pump and hopefully I can make use of these balancing valves on the return sides which is the only place I can access the two loops independently where the return pipes emerge below the floor and back to the boiler.

Paul48 - I will look up Watts HBV

If I ever have to refill and purge air out of the loops do these balancing valves have a the means to bypass the regulating mechanism for full flow? Or is the adjustment range starts at full flow and adjusts down?
If the ball valves are retained would you install the balancing valves up or downstream?

I need to get a close look at the sediment trap to see if there is a directional arrow. I cannot find any published info on sediment trap they installed. Is there a correct term for these things?

swvawethead

Paul48 - I looked up Watts HBV. Very similar at least in outward appearance to the old valves that were removed and discarded. What is the difference between the ball valve mechanism in these verses the regular ball valves that are installed?
I am going to show the installer the info and ask.
He told me the ball valves he installed to replace the balancing valves that were removed would serve the same purpose but I was skeptical but without any good argument against it.

If I were to manually tweak the Watts HBV over time I suppose the setting screw head could be marked for when it needs to be fully opened. It seems it will be good to retain the already installed ball valves for convenient full on/off for servicing.

swvawethead

Ironman - Please confirm the correct orientation of the strainer. It seems it is pointed in the correction direction except the strainer should be under in the 6 o clock position.

swvawethead

hotrod - I did my best to understand the workings of the Caleffi valves. I will need to graduate to that level after the trial and error balancing with the more basic valves. In my situation the balancing would need to be achieved with both loops flowing and they would both be on/off at the same time off the same thermostat and pump. In the first picture of the Caleffi valve showing the gauge, can that valve be oriented horizontally?
It looks like something that would be mounted vertically under or above a zone valve or pump.

swvawethead

Hotrod - the Caleffi valve with the flow meter looks like it will work in my split loop especially because it is to be mounted on the return pipe and in any orientation. And it also can be fully opened. On the other hand I am not quite at the advanced stage of calculating flow rate. In my case the gauge could be used for making note of the setting after manually balancing the loops and will be useful for those times when the valve needs to be fully opened. Not sure if it can be fully closed and allow me to eliminate a separate ball valve.

swvawethead

Hotrod and Paul48.
Since the Watts HBV and the Caleffi Quicksetter internals use a ball valve to regulate the flow rate, is the ball valve itself the same as a regular full flow ball valve?

Paul48

I put the HBV up, because I thought that was most likely what you had originally, not as a recommendation. Since he has the ball valves in place, work with them. Even the HBV's are a pain to adjust. My original recommendation, of globe valves was thought to be the easiest for you.

swvawethead

Paul48 - Thank you and I think the HBV will work fine and the throttling of the flow seems to be basically the same ball valve internals as the Quicksetter. The Quicksetter will be useful when I graduate to heat loss calculations etc. and take advantage of the gauge to set the flow rate as a starting point and tweak from that point.
For now I am going to use those two ball valves for helping fill the loops and push out the air. Looks like the Caleffi Quicksetter valves may be what I splice in at some point.
I am thinking install that downstream from the ball valve.
After the inspection is done and system is fired up we need to keep an eye on any seepage or outright leaks at all the joints, both sweated and threaded, that may not show up until the system is in full heat mode.

swvawethead

Ironman - I took a look at the sediment trap and thank you pointing out the trap needs to be rotated to the lower 6 o clock position. The arrow seems to be aimed correctly towards the boiler otherwise. Thanks again!