Please help check the piping of this new installation

swvawethead

Ichmb.
Re - "Just a personal thing but I hate having something with power located under a replaceable water part."

I stared at the wiring/zone control this morning and couldn't agree with you more.
If I get lucky the inspector may not like that either.
I would prefer to mount the zone control over the left of the boiler on the brick chimney wall (visible in some of the pictures posted) and should not be a difficult job and the only lines that will need to be longer are the three runs to the pumps. Plenty of slack in the other lines.
Installer may want to charge additional for relocating the box in which case I will take care of it myself after heating season is over. They've been good about tweaking some of the installation details.
For peace of mind I will fashion a simple hood over the zone control box, pushed in behind the mounting plate and bent over the unit.

hot_rod

you are correct in that ball valves are not the ideal type of valve to adjust flow. Maybe consider them the entry level device. At the flow rates you are talking about they do a fine job. B&G Watts, Taco, etc have sold tens of thousands of those "circuit setter" valves.

B&G also had a butterfly type with a meter on it, I don't that those are offered anymore.

We at Caleffi offer a more user friendly version with the gauge built in.

Balancing is often ignored on residential systems, until you have an issue of uneven, or insufficient heat distribution on a multi loop system.
Same with balancing devices on radiant manifolds. You may or may not need that much control.

swvawethead

Bob "hot rod" - Thank you, and I do like the simplicity of the Quicksetter which appears to have very little that can cause problems down the road.
I will take baby steps with this and be happy to get the system up and running. Will have to make good use of the remaining heating season to determine if any more tweaking will be needed.
Amazingly the original piping was serving a long split loop for the main floor and another branching out from the main supply to a downstairs loop with the pump on the return at the boiler.
In the original blue print I was lucky to obtain the downstairs loop was indicated as "future zone 3" which we split out during this new install and changed the new plumbing for pumping away.
Unfortunately the split loop starts out as a single pipe before disappearing under the floor so the easiest place was to replace the original balancing valves at the ends of the two returns.

swvawethead

Bob - just to double check, all things aside and looking at only the ball valve portion, the Quicksetter and a regular ball valve would function the same for throttling/regulating flow? Anything different with the ball valve mechanism in the Quicksetter for any setting below full flow?
Also, can the Quicksetter be fully closed as a shutoff/isolation?

Alan (California Radiant) Forbes

Sorry to jump into the middle of all this and maybe it was discussed earlier, but I sure don't like those dielectric unions at the copper to iron pipe transition.

Electrolysis does not happen in hydronic systems, but if you can't let go of that, use a brass nipple to break the connection. Dielectric unions use a rubber washer to make the seal and they deteriorate, especially on high temperature systems and then they leak.

Ideally, use a threaded x copper union or a brass threaded union. Neither of these uses a rubber washer.

swvawethead

Alan - I will talk to the installer and see if they will make the change. Thank you for pointing out the potential failure point.
As I mentioned earlier one of the unions sprung a leak and the boiler hadn't even gone into operation.

swvawethead

Alan - Before the crew shows up and I have to make my case, how difficult would it be for them to make the change? There are ball valves installed on the return and also just past the union on the supply, so managing the water should not be an issue. And they have to rotate the sediment trap (hidden behind that bucket) to point it downwards anyway.

It's been a while since I looked at various types of unions and I will study up on how they are installed.

swvawethead

Alan - I looked up various brass and copper unions. With the iron nipple kept in place, I think a copper or brass union can be threaded onto the iron nipple and other side sweated on to the copper pipe. This is how the dielectric union is installed.
The installer would have to desolder the copper pipe side of the union to make the change.

swvawethead

Alan and all - an update on the dielectric union that ends on a good note.

I ran into a initial "no" when I asked about switching to a threaded brass union.
I was afraid of running into "We have to do what the town requires" and that is exactly what happened.
He agreed with the potential for drips from dielectrics and the notion of a brass transition serving the same purpose of breaking the connection and said he would ask the inspector about it.

I just got a call from the installer after he checked with the inspector and he got an ok to use the threaded brass union (!!). They will switch them out after the gas inspection is done tomorrow.
Thank you everybody for the heads-up on the dielectric union.

This was similar to at the beginning start of the project running into "the town does not require it" when I noticed they used non barrier PEX for splicing in the loops to the new installation. I had to insist on using the correct type and instead they went ahead and ran copper. (I think straight pipe oxygen barrier PEX was not readily available for the job.)

In the end we all come out ahead when I get to brag about the installer and the finished product.

swvawethead

Ichmb - "pressure relief valve should be piped to the floor with copper not pvc... "

Well, installer said "no, we're not going to do that".
They will use PVC unless I want copper and charge more.
Was told it is a drip line not necessary to use copper.

If it's not an inspection issue I can't argue with that.
I can easily take care of that myself later without spending more time on a back and forth. At least I asked and overall the installer has been most excellent to work with.

hot_rod

what's up with the furnace cement?

swvawethead

re - what's up with the furnace cement?

Uh, that's for sealing around the point where the exhaust enters the brick chimney.
Instead of cutting open a new round hole a bit higher up and capping the old (they had a cap for this) they enlarged the old hole on the upper part to gain the necessary pitch for the new install. Not what I expected but too late as the flue is stainless steel lined and already filled with vermiculite.
Stuff isn't setting as quickly as I expected and has been a struggle of sagging and me pushing and smoothing it back in place over several days when the crew is not around in the evenings.
I can post a picture.

swvawethead

hot rod - here you go showing the reason for the mortar bucket.
This also shows the auto damper rotated to the side after it was first installed with the motor straight up top.

https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/editor/bw/uwonaefv5iuq.jpg

swvawethead

hot rod - upon closer look at the two returns for the split loops, the ball valves are installed too close to the 'Y' before returning to the boiler. I was hoping to shut off the valves and splice in the Quicksetters downstream but there is no room for that.
Unfortunately, Installing them upstream from the valves would require draining the loops. I am disappointed but when the time does come it will during off season and then waiting for heating season to play with the new toys.
For now I will have to trial and error with the plain ole' ball valves.
All bypasses on both loops are turned off for full heat and will take it from there.

hot_rod

You have a plan, get er done.

rick in Alaska

You absolutely can not use pvc for your relief valve drain. It is not just a "drip line". It is an inspection issue. If the relief valve has to go off because of a high temperature, the pipe can melt. You can use cpvc, copper, steel pipe and pex (depending on application and inspector).
I despise dielectric unions and have never had a reason to put one on a boiler, except on a Coast Guard job where they required it. I typically don't put a union on at all since It is rare to have to change out a boiler, and I can almost guarantee they are going to be the weak point in trying to seal them up. I figure if I have to change out the boiler in the future, I will just cut the pipe.
Rick

Paul Pollets

The boiler header looks to be the same size as the pump takeoffs. If the takeoffs are 3/4", the headers should be 1" or 11/4", depending upon total flow rates required when all zones are calling.

swvawethead

re - The boiler header looks to be the same size as the pump takeoffs.

They built the manifold on site and now I have additional concerns after what you just pointed out.
When you say "takeoffs", the pipes after the pump?

What about the return pipe? Is that a concern as well?

swvawethead

Paul - I am not fully up on quickly sizing up copper pipe diameter but the pipe out of boiler to the air scoop is 1", after which the manifold piping and before and after appear to be 3/4".
I understand the question you raised and do need to look into this. At this point I may have to let it go and address this myself if it's a matter of increasing the header size to 1-1/4" but does this need to be also for the air separator connection beyond before reaching the manifold?
Let me take some pictures of specific points of pipe transitions.

swvawethead

Rick - re: You absolutely can not use pvc for your relief valve drain. It is not just a "drip line". It is an inspection issue. If the relief valve has to go off because of a high temperature, the pipe can melt. You can use cpvc, copper, steel pipe and pex (depending on application and inspector).

It may be cpvc they use and if that's the case I will just go along and change it later.
He thinks I want copper for the appearance and it's not worth the effort for me to insist on it.

swvawethead

Re - You have a plan, get er done.

Yes, and thank you.
Tomorrow is the gas inspection and last night I filled/purged the lines.

swvawethead

Paul - This may have to be something I address after the installers are gone but I could ask them about it.

Took a close look at the pipe sizes from the boiler and beyond. The installer choked down the boiler supply from 1-1/4" to 1" for the run past the air eliminator, manifold and up to the pumps.
The takeoffs are a different story, with 1" out one pump that goes to the main floor split loop, 3/4" out the remaining two to the smaller zones.

Pumps they used are Taco 0015 3 speed with built-in check valve.

They probably should have used 1-1/4" all the way past the air eliminator and to the manifold and rise up on 1" to the pumps.

This means the air eliminator in/out needs to be 1-1/4" which will require replacing the 1" they used.

At this point of the project, which is near completion, I am afraid I will have to wait and see what happens once the system is fired up.

One more detail that may be important:
The 1" split loop run from the pump is spliced into a...1-1/4" pipe that originally was the main supply before branching off into zones with the pump on the suction side. Approx. 25' run of this 1-1/4" horizontal pipe was retained and connected to the 3/4" pipe that runs under the floor before reaching the two split loops.

In the original piping, there was a 'future zone 3' that tied into supply for a downstairs run and activated off the same thermostat/pump for the main floor split loop. This was split out for a third zone during this install.

Again, maybe 1-1/4" boiler header past the air eliminator and to the bottom run of the manifold.

swvawethead

On the home stretch for GC-144 install.
To update some of the details pointed by very helpful forum professionals:

Good news is they were accommodating and switched out the dielectric union with brass after checking with the inspector.

The pressure relief down pipe is copper after I provided the pieces I already had laying around. Otherwise they were planning on using pex so it worked out fine.

The sediment trap basket is now properly swung down to the 6 o clock position and there is enough clearance to remove the strainer without hitting the top of the boiler.
It was already kind of coated up with clear and tacky residue - I was told probably flux - along with some black flakes that got dislodged during purging the lines and refilling.

The 1" header will have to be a wait and see.
I expect the boiler to run longer to meet demand.
---------------------------
Got lucky with the gas company meter/service that will be installed and activated tomorrow morning. Field rep called and offered to expedite the process and came through for me.
Otherwise it would have been pushed to next week when the crew could fire up the boiler for a test run and final inspection.
-----------------------------

swvawethead

Paul48, hot rod and all those who helped me on this thread:
The system was fired up around 1 pm and much to my relief the pipes are running silent with the pleasant crackling noise from the fins. All bypass pipes are running cool so I know the valves are cranked to the right position.
The three thermostats are set at 66F for this trial run.
(Final inspection will be sometime early next week.)
High limit is lowered to 180 from 190+, low is set to 160.
It's been taking over two hours for the boiler to get past 160 and continue climbing with all three pumps running at the lowest of three speeds. All convector runs are producing heat evenly throughout the house in the three zones, so that's a relief. I would like to hold off on tinkering with balancing and throttling zones and keep things simple to start with.
I am still working on vacuuming the convectors and reinstalling the covers so I know the movement of the heated air is not quite ideal yet.
How long will the initial firing of the boiler run if the house was at around 50+?
Hopefully after the house is acclimated to the new system and things settle down I will be able to observe the boiler temp and run times.
The 1" supply header may be able to handle the job except for maybe the boiler needing to run in longer stretches during normal demand.
Thank you everybody.