Before and after pics

Harvey Ramer

of Mon. and Tues. project.

EzzyT

Beautiful install as always Harvey. Is that a Honeywell zone control box?

Harvey Ramer

EzzyT said:

Beautiful install as always Harvey. Is that a Honeywell zone control box?

Yes it is. As far as I know it is the only zone control with a post purge feature. It has a lot of other goodies built in, but it seems to be geared towards conventional systems. Still leaves a lot to be desired, such as the zone sync. feature. It only works when you use all 4 zones. If you have 3 or 2 zones, it doesn't work.

EzzyT

Interesting, I've installed them when Honeywell just came out them and haven't installed any in a bunch of years. No one around me sells any and if they do they don't have any instock

rbeck

I thought the boiler relief valve had to be in a vertical position.

Tim McElwain

There are other versions of that Honeywell control.

Hilly

@rbeck it is such a nice looking job, I was afraid it'd be rude to ask. I am hoping he comes backs and says it's brand xyz model 123 and it is permitted as such

Harvey Ramer

The installation manuals don't specify orientation of the relief valve. Other than the normal, making sure spillage doesn't cause any equipment damage or bodily harm. If you guys have other info, I'd be glad if you shared it. I don't see what difference it makes on a water system.... On a steamer, condensate would puddle at the cap, causing corrosion, if it were in in a horizontal position.

@Tim McElwain
This is the first honeywell zone control i've tried. My suppliers just brought in honeywell hydronics. I'll have to check into it and see what else they have.

kcopp

Harvey Ramer said:

EzzyT said:

Beautiful install as always Harvey. Is that a Honeywell zone control box?

Yes it is. As far as I know it is the only zone control with a post purge feature. It has a lot of other goodies built in, but it seems to be geared towards conventional systems. Still leaves a lot to be desired, such as the zone sync. feature. It only works when you use all 4 zones. If you have 3 or 2 zones, it doesn't work.

The taco EXP relays have a post purge feature.

Harvey Ramer

kcopp said:

Harvey Ramer said:

EzzyT said:

Beautiful install as always Harvey. Is that a Honeywell zone control box?

Yes it is. As far as I know it is the only zone control with a post purge feature. It has a lot of other goodies built in, but it seems to be geared towards conventional systems. Still leaves a lot to be desired, such as the zone sync. feature. It only works when you use all 4 zones. If you have 3 or 2 zones, it doesn't work.

The taco EXP relays have a post purge feature.

Does it keep any zone open or just the priority zone?

rick in Alaska

Sorry to say, but boiler relief valves must be vertical. Paperwork on the valve will say that, along with a million other things.
Job looks great though.
What is the exhaust system you are using?I have been using the PolyPro piping, but I can't stand the looks of their clamps. This looks much neater.
Rick

kcopp

Harvey Ramer said:

kcopp said:

Harvey Ramer said:

EzzyT said:

Beautiful install as always Harvey. Is that a Honeywell zone control box?

Yes it is. As far as I know it is the only zone control with a post purge feature. It has a lot of other goodies built in, but it seems to be geared towards conventional systems. Still leaves a lot to be desired, such as the zone sync. feature. It only works when you use all 4 zones. If you have 3 or 2 zones, it doesn't work.

The taco EXP relays have a post purge feature.

Does it keep any zone open or just the priority zone?

Just the priority zone. It also has a pump exercise option, priority protection and a reset option. One feature I like/need it that it has a separate set of dry contacts for an indirect.

Harvey Ramer

@rick in Alaska
Why? What's the reason for installing them vertical versus horizontal on a hot water system?

The pp is Centratherm.

Tom_133

Harvey,

I have installed a lot of NTI Tx boilers and I love them. Whats your take? Great price point.

I hope to chat with you in Vegas.

Harvey Ramer

@Tom
It's a Combi boiler, so it is what it is as far as performance.
From an installation standpoint, they have done a lot to make it easy for us. I dig the builtin receptacle to plug in the condensate pump!

Yes, we'll have to catch up at the show!

Tinman

Very clean, Harvey. Great job.

delta T

@Harvey Ramer @rick in Alaska

I had to re-pipe about 30 relief valves on all the boilers in a large multi building condo complex about 8 years ago, because the state boiler inspector wanted them vertical. Fortunately I didn't put them in initially, but I always make sure they are vertical after that....Honestly not sure what the reasoning is, but I do remember looking it up somewhere and reading it. I'll try and figure out where I read it.

Beautiful install! What do you use for the wall covering behind everything?

ChrisJ

delta T said:

@Harvey Ramer @rick in Alaska

I had to re-pipe about 30 relief valves on all the boilers in a large multi building condo complex about 8 years ago, because the state boiler inspector wanted them vertical. Fortunately I didn't put them in initially, but I always make sure they are vertical after that....Honestly not sure what the reasoning is, but I do remember looking it up somewhere and reading it. I'll try and figure out where I read it.

Beautiful install!

Does anyone have documentation showing where this is required because I cannot find any.

I know it says it on steam boilers, but I haven't been able to find anything on hot water. I'm looking at Watt's website right now and am coming up empty handed.

Does code state this somewhere?

Hilly

The tag on an Apollo RVW-40 reads

"THIS VALVE MUST BE MOUNTED IN A VERTICAL, UPRIGHT POSITION DIRECTLY TO A CLEAN, TAPPED OPENING IN THE TOP OF THE BOILER OR EQUIPMENT. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD THERE BE A FLOW RESTRICTION OR VALVE OF ANY TYPE BETWEEN THE SAFETY RELIEF VALVE AND THE PRESSURE VESSEL"

FYI, I'm not being rude the text was in Caps because I merely copy and pasted it.

delta T

just check 2015 IMC and could not find anything regarding this other than that a relief valve is required and cannot discharge to damage appliance or cause harm. Really wish I could remember where I read that, might be a local thing too.....hmmm more digging this weekend I think.....

rick in Alaska

It is on the label that comes on the relief valve itself. I assume it is because there is less chance of Iron debris from cast iron boilers laying in the valve and plugging it up. Just about all the installs I see around here for Buderus boilers have the valve horizontal.One of these days there will be an insurance company involved in an incident. Luckily, we don't see many lawyers involved around here, but there are a lot of outsiders moving in the past few years. Just a matter of time.
Rick

Harvey Ramer

I read ASME section iv. The only thing it says is that the seat of the valve must be above the bottom of the discharge tube. One can reasonably assume that this is to prevent water from sitting in there and starting corrosion from the outside. The valves are all constructed in such a way that the seat is above when the spindle is in a vertical position. However, when the valve is in a horizontal position with the discharge straight down, the same goal is achieved. This would not be the case if both the valve and the discharge pipe were in a horizontal position.

ChrisJ

Well,

We all know the T&P on most if not all water heaters is horizontal.

Is there some kind of mystical difference between a boiler pressure relief and a T&P other than the T&P doing temperature as well that makes it so it can be horizontal?

rick in Alaska

Just took this off the one on my boiler. Hope it is not illegal to "remove the tag". lol
Rick

Hilly

Harvey I was just "searching" and figure iso 4126 or asme would have something, but if you looked in section iv then maybe it was just one of those things we "learned" and never thought twice about. I did find one snippet about he iso standard and it mentioned in my wording... install upright unless manufacturer says otherwise is acceptable. I could save a street 90 and press 90 on ever boiler now. ha

ChrisJ

So, it all depends on what the label on Harvey's valve said.

Paul48

"If all else fails, follow the directions"

Tom_133

The vertical relief valve was something that was ingrained in me very early on, I don't know if its right or not but I do it. Also, I remember when we were installing Weil Mclain Ultras they came with a Black 3/4 st 90 for the relief valve to be installed in the vertical position. Maybe it was to meet certain jurisdictions. I know I have read it on relief tags, but always wondered why T&P didn't need to be done that way, maybe it is a corrosion thing.

gschallert

I read that they are not supposed to be installed horizontally because of the possible effect of gravity on the piston in that position.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Relief valve mounting. I have had to change the piping on a few I put in. In MA. it is the State boiler inspectors that insist on this. I don't know the reason. I just put em verticle now

Gordy

Water heaters TP valves work sensing temperature, and/or pressure. Boilers by pressure.. fouling is a concern with either. Fouling is more of a chance in the horizontal position. A water heaters location has to be at the top 6" due to stacking. Being that it operates on temperature also may be the reason for the latitude of horizontal installations.

Tinman

Can anyone give a single example of where a pressure relief valve was installed on a horizontal plane and caused damage to property or person? I can't. Quit obsessing about the relief valve and give Harvey his due for a job well done. There's a boiler pic going around on LinkedIn right now that has well over 1000 likes and if I saw that in my basement, I'd make them tear it out.

Gordy

Wasn't obsessing, just speculating with the lack of information other than the tag on the valve as to why.........

gschallert

http://alliedvalveinc.com/the-valve-expert/3-things-avoid-installing-operating-safety-valves/

ETA: Also Code in NYS - The pressure relief/safety valve must be installed in the upright (vertical) position NYS Code 4-5.4

Guess your state has different code is all

Hilly

@Stephen Minnich I don't think anyone here thinks this is anything but a great install. To be perfectly honestly though, IMO, it's questions and extensions to threads such as this that really set things straight. The little things like this, that eventually somebody gives a definitive answer to, or it gets debunked in the end is where everyone has the ability to grow. I honestly believe this is a true place of learning. This thread, again IMO, has just turned into one of these learning discussions.

@Harvey Ramer I hope at no point you felt slighted by this conversation getting away from things. I'll say it again... You did great on this project just like you always do. Please keep sharing in the future.

Tinman

@Hilly - Point taken and it's a valid one. This IS an incredible place of higher learning.

My point is this - installations like the one Harvey has posted are very few and far between in the real world. They are truly the exception to the rule. I'm in boiler rooms every single day and I can count the number of high quality installations I've seen in the last couple years on one hand. And this is in a market full of hydronics, so you would think there would be a market full of competent hydronic contractors but there isn't.

IMO, when a guy as able and qualified as Harvey posts a job picture like that, give him the benefit of the doubt. Start a new thread about the finer points of installing a pressure relief valve on a hot water boiler. Because otherwise all that's seen or read is the critics coming from every angle and it's not the critic who counts. We see crap all the time. Give the great jobs their due.

Can you imagine how hesitant and intimidated a newer installer might be to post pictures, looking for critique? It's not going to happen. I'm not suggesting that Erin do this but I think in all fairness if someone is going to be hyper-critical of someone else's work, let's see some of YOUR work first. That will slow things in a heartbeat.

Le John

Beautiful install @Harvey Ramer . What combi boiler is that? The VMax?

gschallert

Stephen Minnich said:

Can you imagine how hesitant and intimidated a newer installer might be to post pictures, looking for critique? It's not going to happen. I'm not suggesting that Erin do this but I think in all fairness if someone is going to be hyper-critical of someone else's work, let's see some of YOUR work first. That will slow things in a heartbeat.

If someone is hesitant to post pictures of their work in a public forum, thus inviting feedback be it positive, negative or just questioning, they should decide for themselves whether they can handle that. I doubt very much Harvey Ramer is the delicate little snowflake you apparently see him as, that he needs you defending his installations from legitimate questions of installation practices. Noticing something that would get red-tagged at inspection in your experience is commendably observant, not "hyper-critical".

Harvey Ramer

I don't mind constructive criticism. It helps us become better at what we do. The decision to install the valve in the orientation was based on aesthetics and lack of any logical argument of why not to. I don't remember a tag being on the valve. There is a dirt trap, with a clean out, at the bottom of the verticle pipe that the valve mounts to. Definitely something I'll pay more attention to in the future.

@delta T
The backing board is 1/2" sanded birch plywood painted in flat black.

The boiler is an NTI TX 151 Combi. I had to limit the CH firing rate to 60% of full capacity to prevent cycles due to temp over shoots. I also had to keep the low end of the reset curve up to 140 to allow a decent run time when only one zone is calling. I feel that is more important than having the boiler in full condensing mode.

gschallert

Harvey Ramer said:

The backing board is 1/2" sanded birch plywood painted in flat black.

The company that installed my in-laws Viessmann combi-boiler did that too. What's the reasoning? I thought black was an interesting choice, why not gray or white for instance? Installer preference?

Tinman

@gschallert - I half expected to hear that term at some point - "snowflake". I know you didn't call anyone that but I'm not sure there has been a more overused or inaccurate term used in the past year and a half. The dictionary is full of words...