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Before and after pics

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Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,858
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    This is true for everything.



    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    HillyratioBob Bona_4
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    I noticed about 15 years ago the deliberate plan started by boiler mfrs to pipe in reliefs vertical. I believe it is as stated before, to have the seat of the "piston" unaffected by gravity and/or collection of debris.
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    Not taking your bait, nor your advice.
    Steve Minnich
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,333
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    Let's take a step back for a minute.

    What I see here is an experienced contractor sharing his work and fellow professionals offering feedback based on concern and curiosity. As many of you have said, this is how we learn and improve. And @Harvey Ramer is a class act for being open to listening and learning. This is why we created Heating Help.

    Thanks @Harvey Ramer and all for sharing your work, for continuing to ask questions, and for being open to learning from one another.

    @Stephen Minnich I get your point about nitpicking pros, but it seems like a lot of folks were wondering about the position of the boiler relief valve and because they asked, we all got to learn something new.

    And "@Hatterasguy", I hear what you're saying, but disagree with your statement that "This place has become a mutual admiration society. Whenever someone posts photos of the install, we all must bend over and applaud without any additional comment." Who says we must all bend over and applaud? Not me. And that's not what's happening in this thread.

    Now let's get back to talking about the work and learning from one another.

    President
    HeatingHelp.com

    LionA29Solid_Fuel_Manrick in Alaskadelta T
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    I agree whole-heartedly @Erin Holohan Haskell
    The collective knowledge on HH is a treasure trove of experience, learning, and some good story telling.

    Mutual admiration is for social media, this is a professional discussion, amongst professionals. I would say that the pros, including myself, are here to help and learn from each other. There have been threads which I and others have started which have taken a completely different path, such as this one.

    I personally have mounted many a PRV horizontal on water, never giving it a second thought. Same logic that they are that way on DHW. Never had an inspector say anything, so I would never have known any reason apart from this thread to do otherwise.

    @Harvey Ramer nice clean professional install, and as usual love the strut and cushion clamps on the copper! We all have personal ways of doing things and the logic that made each of those decisions, whether they be aesthetic, economic, or "what we had to do to get it done with what was available in a timely manner".

    Taylor
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
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    Here's the crux of my issue - it's NOT just a "professional discussion, amongst professionals" as SFM said. These discussions welcome everyone including homeowners and possibly a homeowner whose job is being discussed.

    In this case, we have a job that was clearly designed and executed better than 99% of the jobs out there. We have a handful of people giving the job a thumbs up and then another handful of people focusing solely on the position of the relief valve.

    All the while, we potentially have the possibility of Harvey's customer reading everything and we know nothing about this customer. He or she may have been the greatest client ever but they also may have been one of the difficult ones. If you've been in this trade for more than a week and a half, you know that people have a tendency to share bad news about you 10x more than good news. So we oughta think this stuff through just a little.

    "Find a Contractor" who doesn't know how to properly install Part A, Part B, or Part C. Great! Advertising dollars well spent.

    One more thing - guys who throw out terms like "snowflakes" and "big boy pants" at guys who swing steel pipe wrenches all day long in boiler rooms should save that for when we're sitting at a round table. If you won't say it that setting, don't say it in this setting.

    My .02.
    Steve Minnich
    Dan FoleyHarvey RamerSolid_Fuel_ManErin Holohan Haskelldelta T
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    Let's be fair @Stephen Minnich and give the customer some credit. If this customer had read the entire thread they would have seen the universal praise for an excellent install with a few people wondering about the positioning of a relief valve, that stem, most likely from a difference in their local codes. I get what you're saying about the choice of language being antagonistic sometimes but I find the same thing in most interactions I have. Not everyone was interested/awake during English class. :)

    @Harvey Ramer It is an excellent, well thought out install to my untrained eye, something I'd be proud to have in my utility room.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,353
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    The installation manual usually does, or should indicate acceptable mounting for valves. There are a number of valves that have limited mounting positions.

    I remember hearing about relief valves needing to be mounted vertical, but I don't see it in any of the current installation for 3 major brands.

    Kinda like expansion tank mounting positions :)


    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Erin Holohan HaskellTinman
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    edited January 2017
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    @Canucker - You have more faith in people than I do. : )
    Steve Minnich
    Canucker
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    Harvey, if I may ask. What were the issues with the existing system?
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    A leaking block on the boiler and a dated water heater.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    In your opinion was the old install good for the period? As a whole.
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    For the period, yes. It was sound. Not done the way we do them now but typical for that time. No real effort to beautify the piping but not a cluttered mess either.

    It was, however, about 4 times the size needed.
    HillyGordy
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    edited January 2017
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    Aren't they always a 400% "safety factor"? I was involved in a commercial addition where the square footage was tripled and the existing boiler heats the whole thing....

    We are talking 6,000 square feet to 20,000
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,546
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    So if I were the owner. I had a system that worked well. It was oversized for the load probably not to the owners knowledge. I walk down to the basement to watch the new creation unfold either while in progress, or after it is done.

    I can only imagine the praise you must have been given for your creation Harvey.

    The relief valve. If you were to have installed it vertical. Wouldn't that have made a ptrap to hold debris? Which if the valve ever did pop off would then be fouled by that debris to keep it from reseating?

    You keep setting bars like that the next one becomes harder to break.
  • NYplumber
    NYplumber Member Posts: 503
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    @Harvey Ramer Nice work!
    :NYplumber:
    Harvey Ramer
  • Matt_67
    Matt_67 Member Posts: 295
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    It's a great install - very clean and awesome workmanship. Page 38 of the install manual mentions the relief valve orientation requirement.
    Harvey Ramer
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    All the boilers I've been using the last15 yrs supply fittings to facilitate this. Not sure about NTI.
    Harvey Ramer
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
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  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    @gschallert
    Thanks for sharing the link.

    How about you introduce yourself and tell us what you do? I can't remember seeing you on here before.
    Tinman
  • gschallert
    gschallert Member Posts: 170
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    @gschallert

    Thanks for sharing the link.

    How about you introduce yourself and tell us what you do? I can't remember seeing you on here before.

    Sorry to disappoint, just a homeowner here. Name is Grace. I'm a systems engineer for a medical imaging manufacturer. Because I have the engineering degree I'm also the Household engineer which means I've always gotten to design and take care of the house mechanicals.

    I lurked for about two years while I researched some heating solutions for family and friends. Finally posted last spring when I was looking for some feedback on commercial grade SS for a HW tank and needed to open my own checkbook. Wanted second opinions on my own replacement last fall and tried to do the homework for my elderly in-laws since they also opted for a complete replacement to take advantage of expiring gas conversion rebates. Ended up learning a lot about heat loss and sizing and looking at the big picture for heating and cooling as a system over the last couple of years.

    It was frustrating for me as a homeowner getting such varied and contradictory equipment recommendations from people in the same profession so I wanted to find a place for second and third opinions from people who weren't trying to sell me something.
    Harvey RamerBob Bona_4Tinmanrick in AlaskaErin Holohan Haskelldelta T
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
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    Thanks Grace.
    And welcome to the Wall! I'm glad you found help here. It's a friendly place.
    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,333
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    Welcome, Grace!

    President
    HeatingHelp.com

  • john p_2
    john p_2 Member Posts: 367
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    Looks great, nice job.