Manufacturing in America

Paul48

To borrow the term used by Guns 'n' Roses, they don't live in "The Jungle". That's not to make excuses. It is just a fact. Unfortunately, the bad habits spread around the world. The world is not a big place any more. There are still huge cultural differences between Europe and us. They have much more "down" time than Americans. Some of that is mandated by law.

ChrisJ

Paul48 said:

To borrow the term used by Guns 'n' Roses, they don't live in "The Jungle". That's not to make excuses. It is just a fact. Unfortunately, the bad habits spread around the world. The world is not a big place any more. There are still huge cultural differences between Europe and us. They have much more "down" time than Americans. Some of that is mandated by law.

That's one of our biggest issues in my opinion.
We don't have time to eat healthy and many don't have the money to either. All of the junk is cheap and quick.

DanHolohan

Chris, when you say "we" don't have the time to eat healthy it makes me smile. The all-inclusive thing.

SlamDunk

Fred said:

@SlamDunk , I really don't think their gas costs are in any way related to our consumption. Their government will argue it is the logistics/distribution costs. Back in the 90's gasoline was about $5.00/gal., in Italy. Today it is about $9.00/gal. I have a sister and two brothers and their families there. On the surface, one would ask, how can they afford that, but in reality, most have methane tanks in the trunks of their cars and they fill up on methane at a more reasonable cost (I'm not sure what that price is today but I could find out).

I was just conveying one man's perception, in a moment of time. I'm sure it wasn't thought through completely. I have been told many times that perception is more important than reality.

But truthfully, the Ford Excursion was over the top. At the time, I was both annoyed and humored watching, waiting for people get their Excursions into and out of parking spaces.

DanHolohan

I remember when the Excursion first arrived and Hot Rod dubbed it the Ford Excursion Valdez. I'm still giggling over that one.

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

Chris, when you say "we" don't have the time to eat healthy it makes me smile. The all-inclusive thing.

Hi Dan,

I meant the royal we.

DanHolohan

Ah, the regal ones who eat the cake! Thanks for the clarification. ;-)

Gordy

hot rod said:

Gordy said:

Because they have become Americanized......

Maybe it is connected to the rise of fast food chains showing up in Europe?

When I visit Italy, most of then people I know and stay with shop every day on the way home. Fresh produce, meats, pastas and bake goods. Many have small gardens or share community garden.

Wine instead of soft drinks. They eat healthy and small portions.

One exception is their love of Nutella My son came home addicted to the brown stuff.











In larger cities where the chain fast food shops set up, like here there are lines of mostly younger people, same in the college towns.

Food quality and lack of exercise, lead to weight issues. Although many Italians are biking and or kicking a soccer ball around a lot.

Exactly.

Gordy

The problem is convenience, and laziness. That's why some people do not make time to eat healthy.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

The problem is convenience, and laziness. That's why some people do not make time to eat healthy.

Yeah,
People working extended hours or multiple jobs has nothing to do with it, only laziness.

I know quite a few guys on this forum working extended hours every day, my self included. Leaving home at 6AM and not getting home until 7-9PM.

That's not laziness.

DanHolohan

Chris, the way you're working all those hours, how do you find time to post so much?

ChrisJ

DanHolohan said:

Chris, the way you're working all those hours, how do you find time to post so much?

Hi Dan,
Please see PM regarding that.

Gordy

My point is taking the time to pack a healthy lunch/meal Chris. The landscape is littered with fast food, and convenience store/ gas stations that sell garbage food. Some will grab anything to fill the gut.

Italy has hour lunches which is usuall the big meal of the day. You get the chance to work it off before a light meal in the evening. Here it's the big meal in the evening then relax for most.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

My point is taking the time to pack a healthy lunch/meal Chris. The landscape is littered with fast food, and convenience store/ gas stations that sell garbage food. Some will grab anything to fill the gut.

Italy has hour lunches which is usuall the big meal of the day. You get the chance to work it off before a light meal in the evening. Here it's the big meal in the evening then relax for most.

I've always heard breakfast should be a big meal followed by two small ones.

Traditions are hard to end as well for people.

hot_rod

On mt first visit to Italy we were driving a few hours to some joists. Our host suggest we stop for gas and get some lunch at the stop.
They have these incredible Auto Grills along the highways, it a good lunch stop or pick up fresh food to take home. It local these, fruit, vegetables and meats. Fresh baked tools and bread.


It's not loaded with sugar products like the 7-11 type stops.

Gordy

No slim jims. Not a whole isle dedicated to potatoe chips, and another to Suzy Qs, and the like. No pre made sandwiches from last year of the other night laced with preservatives to give the illusion of freshness. No wieners, and tornadoes on the rollers since 7:00am? My god how do they get through the day??

Gordy

It's so nice when visiting a foreign country to have family. This allows you to be able to participate in the daily cultural activities to give you a real grasp as to what their traights are.

To see France, Italy pick one in 10 days you miss so much Hot Rod witnessed, and knows what I'm talking about. I miss the smell of the markets on the street. Cheeses, meats,produce, and baked goods ahh. Expresso, latte.

Nothing better than fresh baked crusty Italian bread with supressa on it, and some crumpled blue cheese, or Parmesan.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

Gordy said:

My point is taking the time to pack a healthy lunch/meal Chris. The landscape is littered with fast food, and convenience store/ gas stations that sell garbage food. Some will grab anything to fill the gut.

Italy has hour lunches which is usuall the big meal of the day. You get the chance to work it off before a light meal in the evening. Here it's the big meal in the evening then relax for most.

I've always heard breakfast should be a big meal followed by two small ones.

Traditions are hard to end as well for people.

That will work too. Point is having the higher calorie intake while you are still able to burn it off through out the course of a day. Eating big at the end does not leave much time left to burn it off.

Paul48

They're very kind to Americans in France.

hot_rod

SlamDunk

Population of Germany: 81 Million
Population of USA:319 Million

I say it is an uphill climb for us because we are not as homogenized as Germany. Fifty states with their own uniqueness. Seems impossible.

Paul48

Germany is the size of Ohio. Every aspect of German manufacturing is designed to be better. You can't own a business without a doctorate. Their engineers do not graduate as engineers. They serve an apprenticeship, first. I've worked with German toolmakers. Beyond schooling, they serve years as apprentices, making starvation wages. They learn everything about the trade. In my dealings with them, they have always been among the very best. When you don't have to spend money on your military, a lot can be done.

SlamDunk

I see your point. But, uneducated and inexperienced people do not design or build supersonic jets or deep diving submarines or unmanned drones. All these are manufacturing jobs.

hot_rod

SlamDunk said:

Population of Germany: 81 Million
Population of USA:319 Million

I say it is an uphill climb for us because we are not as homogenized as Germany. Fifty states with their own uniqueness. Seems impossible.

I like their model of starting at age 14 to train for the tech skills. I think Bernie had it right, make a 2 year community college or trade tech part of the education program. An extension of high school really, as most high school grads are not ready to go into the tech jobs without some specialized training and hands on time.

Gordy

Agreed. The next hurdle would getting parents to realize their children's abilitiies to orient them in the right direction in a career. Some snub the trades, and want college for their kid. While the kid is not College, or white collar material.

Gordy

Paul48 said:

Germany is the size of Ohio. Every aspect of German manufacturing is designed to be better. You can't own a business without a doctorate. Their engineers do not graduate as engineers. They serve an apprenticeship, first. I've worked with German toolmakers. Beyond schooling, they serve years as apprentices, making starvation wages. They learn everything about the trade. In my dealings with them, they have always been among the very best. When you don't have to spend money on your military, a lot can be done.

Boeing requires all their engineers to have their masters in business along with their engineering degree.......

I like the idea of learning, and working the business from the basement up. It use to be that way. Just makes sense.

Paul48

"Boeing requires all their engineers to have their masters in business along with their engineering degree......."

That's not the same as requiring them to become good engineers. That is to ensure they can become management, and then be bad at both.

SlamDunk

Gordy said:

Agreed. The next hurdle would getting parents to realize their children's abilitiies to orient them in the right direction in a career. Some snub the trades, and want college for their kid. While the kid is not College, or white collar material.

I went to college and I am solidly blue collar by choice. That is the only reason my parents' insisted on a higher education. To have the opportunity to choose what I want to do because they didn't have one. Best gift ever!

Paul48

We have to make sure that quality trade schools are available. Beyond that, the trades must do a better job of representing themselves to youngsters. How many 8th graders do you think, know how much someone in the HVAC trade can make? That's the bottom line.

DanHolohan

Paul, how would you do this if you were King of the Forest?

Paul48

I don't know Dan. Kids know they'd like to be a doctor, or a lawyer, or any other white collar job, because they believe they can make good money. I don't think that enough kids are aware that in many cases you can earn more in a trade. Do you disagree?

DanHolohan

Yes, I agree. I'm reaching for ideas as to how we could help it happen. One idea, no matter how small, beats I don't know.

Got some?

Gordy

Paul48 said:

"Boeing requires all their engineers to have their masters in business along with their engineering degree......."

That's not the same as requiring them to become good engineers. That is to ensure they can become management, and then be bad at both.

You worked for Boeing Paul? They have been in business for 100 years. Does that mean they had poor management, and engineers?

Paul48

Sure..........How about an ad campaign, showing some fine homes. Then show who those fine homes belong to......tradesmen and women. How about trades representation, at job fairs that accurately depicts what can be achieved in the trade, as opposed to just having companies that are looking for employees.....Does that make any sense?

Gordy

SlamDunk said:

Gordy said:

Agreed. The next hurdle would getting parents to realize their children's abilitiies to orient them in the right direction in a career. Some snub the trades, and want college for their kid. While the kid is not College, or white collar material.

I went to college and I am solidly blue collar by choice. That is the only reason my parents' insisted on a higher education. To have the opportunity to choose what I want to do because they didn't have one. Best gift ever!

What was the definitive point that made you choose blue collar?

Paul48

@Gordy
I added that last part, thinking you might get a chuckle. Boeing must be very dear to you, and I apologize, whole heartedly.

DanHolohan

Paul, how do you pay for all of that? Please don't say I don't know.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I'm still loving the idea of engineers having to actually work in the trades in which they will one day be designing equipment for. Anyone who has come from the bottom up will be better when they reach the top, as they actually know what it is to work.

Sometimes I think higher education has caused this skip in time, by giving the ability to send people to top white collar management when they themselves have never run anything. Apprenticeship models that the older generation can actually teach something and is in fact smarter than the younger generation thinks.

That said, I know some older people who have done things wrong for 40+ years....

Taylor

Paul48

@Dan Holohan
That's the problem, no one wants to pay for things like that. It has been done by governments in other countries. I know I have seen pictures of working class folks being depicted in a good light.

DanHolohan

If we decide that no one want to pay then we are defeated before we begin.

Try thinking about it in a different way:

The advertising program exists and everyone is benefiting from it. Wow

Okay. Who made that happen? And how? Who had the solution? Did we not see what that person saw because we were already convinced that it could not be done?

Think.