Off Topic

Zman

@Rich posted a question on another thread.

It has been my understanding that people are supposed to post a questions or discussions under a topic, then folks would discuss that topic within that thread.

The nice thing about that is that you can view things by subject that interest you and ignore subjects that don't. Personally, I have no interest in the childish banter ("I know you are, but what am I"), I have kids for that. Some folks seem to enjoy it, not trying to take that away.

The topic was, a guy asking for advice on converting to gas. If you guys want to have a conversation about spare parts for some boiler, or who has more experience, or whose body parts are larger, that's great but what does it have to do with the OP? There is nothing wrong with most of these dialogs, but again, don't make the OP and others sort through it to get answers to their questions.

I strongly feel that these side battles you guys like to engage in take a lot away from a site that I otherwise enjoy immensely. People just get turned off when their posts get hijacked. You see it all the time, folks either check out, or take the conversation off the forum. In the past I have done that, when the post gets all buggered up, you send the person a message and help them privately. This takes something away from the forum but the person still gets helped.

No, I have not been Deputized, I just believe that the intent of the feedback tabs is to enable the users to self police.

@Erin Holohan Haskell
Please correct Me if I have misunderstood the intent.
Also, What do you think of adding an "Off Topic" Category?
These threads that go astray could be split into two conversations?

Carl

Zman

@Hatterasguy
I appreciate the response.
Reading back through that post, I find your response ironic.
I think you fueled that entire feud. I would say it went South at post 6.

No one like likes there work to be referred to as "lipstick on a pig". That kind of statement is like gas on a fire.

There is and will always be friction between Engineers and Contractors. When one side starts the conversation by belittling the other, things never end well.

My experience has been that it stems from a lack of respect from both sides. Both sides have so much to learn from the other if they can just figure out how to communicate.

Engineers tend to be dismissive of contractors concerns without thoroughly reviewing the concern.

Contractors often jump to the conclusion that the design does not work without hearing the engineer out.

To make things worse, there are plenty of engineers and contractors that are simply incompetent (and stubborn).

For the most part, I think all the regulars on Heating Help are great at what they do and I have learned a great deal from everyone.
I don't necessarily agree with some people on brand or design preferences, but I certainly respect the passion and intellect behind them.

Gordy

I see where Carl is coming from with his initial concern on new topics with in a thread. Quite frankly the whole new discussion gets lost forever in that thread if there is any validity to the new discussion.

One thing that drives me crazy is multiple new topics that are from the same original poster on same system, or problem. Bouncing around to different topics things get lost. Especially when even though it's a seperate discussion it's connected to the same system.

I do get on different forums, and some administrators are pretty OCD on keeping that sort of thing in order.

Bottom line on the other issues. It is self discipline on knowing when to say when, and move on. There is a fine line when a homeowner posts a topic on something, and the discussion turns deep in a hurry before a definitive answer is reached. Most are looking for a clear response. Professional on professional is a different matter.

Zman

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This is caused by your misinterpretation of the post. "Lipstick on a pig" was a general expression utilized to refer to the use of a buffer tank. It was not directed at any person or specific installation.

I stand by the statement. Once you have added $1500. to the cost of an installation, you have failed as a contractor in 99% of the cases. There are alternate means to get to the end without suffering this significant additional cost.

FWIW, I didn't invent the comment. I have stolen it from a well respected contractor on here. The statement is no better or worse than "You can't fix stupid". We use that expression all the time on HH and everybody appreciates it. So, do we have a double standard? We can use "You can't fix stupid" to characterize any install that is not done by a HH member but we cannot use "lipstick on a pig" to characterize an install done by a HH member? Is that the position you want to take? For the record, I never saw you object to any previous installation that was characterized as "You can't fix stupid".

The ironic part of the discussion was the fact that the individual offering the ad hominem attack actually agrees with me. He utilized one buffer tank in 30 years and, yet, he's championing their use and disagreeing with my opinion. Truly ironic.




Hatt,
Using phrases like "lipstick on a pig" or "you can't fix stupid". To describe a system or condition that is obviously screwed up is not the same as calling some ones design or idea "lipstick on a pig". The later is insulting and inflammatory.

As for your assertion that the use of buffer tanks in any system is "lipstick on a pig", that is a discussion for another day and one you should probably take up with individuals like John Seigenthaler.
Let me know how that one goes....

Rich_49

Since my name is mentioned in Post #1 of this thread , I will state my thoughts .

The thread went South at post #4 . At this point Hatteras offered pretty good solicited advice that would certainly have to be part of any discussion directly related to the OP's original question .
A buffer tank is a remedy to a situation in all cases and anyone who uses a buffer should only be doing so if necessary or in a situation where it is desirable .
Examples , off grid where loading of tank because of restrictions or possible shortfalls can and will happen . Allowing for the future addition of multiple sources to guarantee ability to heat when bad things happen . As a strategy to reach net zero home specifications .
The offerings that Hatteras served up are a couple options in a short list of the presently available equipment that would lessen the necessity of one needing a buffer .
Many contractors steer folks to the wrong boiler , most of the time it has little to do with size as much as it has to do with something else . Let's face it , it happens all the time as can be verified by more than half of the desperate threads we assist with . This is the very first mistake made on most jobs that go wrong . Wrong boiler can encompass many things .
Lipstick on a pig should offend no one , if it does I would suggest a course or therapy session in taking constructive criticism and quite possibly learning not to use a boiler plate solution only to find out you require as buffer due to recommending the wrong boiler before performing the proper due dilligence and first verifying that there is nothing available that would not require a buffer in a system .

Discussions that are as general as the one we are discussing will take many twists and turns and with the exception of the wagering talk that got a bit dragged out by Chris J i saw nothing that would not in the end inform Walnut Farmer in his contemplation of what direction he ultimately ends up taking .

I would like to point out that one poster that contributed to your admonishing posts requirement bad mouthed a manufacturers product as a Frankenstein Monster because he has had occasion to repair blowers , control boards and the like in the same thread where he recommended another brand whom has had to have 2 of the same part replaced and 1 of another within 3 years .

Nobody can go at it as hard as myself and Hatteras , you should some of the telephone conversations , LMAO . This particular time though Hatteras' responses were not inappropriate to the questions and comments .

Instead of writing an admonishment on the discussion maybe getting on back on track would have been better , maybe .

A question for Charlie . When you had the warranty issue , what part/s were sent to you on the HX failure ?

Gordy

Deal with an architect. Now there is someone where budget has no meaning when giving them full control.......

Charlie from wmass

Guess experience doing means nothing compared to reading about it on the Internet. Lipstick on a pig then suggesting a boiler directly fused with a buffer tank negates all argument that buffer tanks are Lipstick for porcine. But hey carry on. Since I do not have a generic mechanical engineering degree I could not have a valid opinion. I know great engineers for slaughterhouse equipment, I would not want them to design a jet engine.

Rich_49

Zman said:



As for your assertion that the use of buffer tanks in any system is "lipstick on a pig", that is a discussion for another day and one you should probably take up with individuals like John Seigenthaler.
Let me know how that one goes....


@Zman

I have also personally viewed many recent drawings produced by this individual that recommend an option that looks surprisingly similar to a few HTP products in lieu of a wall hung / Buffer equipment selection . Just sayin

Zman

Thank you everyone for responding. I like it!
The one thing I think everyone can agree on is that the architect should not be allowed in the discussion at all.
I have yet to meet one that knows anything at all about the subject no matter how hard they try to convince the owner they do...

Paul48

If you guys keep that up, I'm gonna give you an "Off Topic", and complain the the Powers the Be.

Rich_49

Zman said:

@Rich posted a question on another thread.

It has been my understanding that people are supposed to post a questions or discussions under a topic, then folks would discuss that topic within that thread.

The nice thing about that is that you can view things by subject that interest you and ignore subjects that don't. Personally, I have no interest in the childish banter ("I know you are, but what am I"), I have kids for that. Some folks seem to enjoy it, not trying to take that away.

The topic was, a guy asking for advice on converting to gas. If you guys want to have a conversation about spare parts for some boiler, or who has more experience, or whose body parts are larger, that's great but what does it have to do with the OP? There is nothing wrong with most of these dialogs, but again, don't make the OP and others sort through it to get answers to their questions.

I strongly feel that these side battles you guys like to engage in take a lot away from a site that I otherwise enjoy immensely. People just get turned off when their posts get hijacked. You see it all the time, folks either check out, or take the conversation off the forum. In the past I have done that, when the post gets all buggered up, you send the person a message and help them privately. This takes something away from the forum but the person still gets helped.

No, I have not been Deputized, I just believe that the intent of the feedback tabs is to enable the users to self police.

@Erin Holohan Haskell
Please correct Me if I have misunderstood the intent.
Also, What do you think of adding an "Off Topic" Category?
These threads that go astray could be split into two conversations?

Carl

Please take no offense Carl .

This sounds just like our entire system . Someone got offended , time for another office or agency . Soon nobody is capable of knowing what is going on since they have to go from one room to another .
Let the discussions go where they may , although it sounds like it may be off topic it usually is not and is relevant .

Zman

If nothing else, I think it is important to look back at the threads that have gone bad and try to figure out where it went wrong and how to not repeat.

Some are offended by certain phrases or comments.
As everyone has figured out by now my frustration is with posts that go so far off topic that you can't even follow them.

To Rich's comments, I agree that it is impossible to control the minor deviations. The best we can hope for is a post that stays generally on course without getting nasty and personal.

ChrisJ

I also run a forum, albeit much smaller than HH. I've also been on many forums for over 23 years.

My personal opinion is off topic comments increase traffic to both the forum, as well as the thread. Without such comments the thread would simply fall to the bottom and disappear, where off topic comments keep it near the top of the list and guys see the original thread title. This makes them often chime in and bring the thread back on topic.

Forums with strict rules on this are often very quiet, things go ignored or unanswered and traffic is very slow.

Point being I feel the benefits greatly outweigh the negative. Of course, my opinion on the subject is moot as I don't moderate this forum. I believe Erin wants people to get along and stop arguing with each other and getting nasty. I don't think she really cares so much about things going off topic. I could be wrong though. @Erin Holohan Haskell please comment?

Before anyone calls me on it, yes, I know I'm part of the problem. Not saying i'm not. I very often unintentionally go off on a tangent but I don't do it to cause confusion, it just happens.

hot_rod

Hatterasguy said:

Zman said:

Hatt,
Using phrases like "lipstick on a pig" or "you can't fix stupid". To describe a system or condition that is obviously screwed up is not the same as calling some ones design or idea "lipstick on a pig". The later is insulting and inflammatory.

Let me see if I understand.

It's OK to pointedly say "You can't fix stupid" with regard to a contractor's installation but it is not OK to refer to the same install as "lipstick on a pig".

Do I have that right? The former is not insulting and the latter is insulting? Seriously?

Zman said:

As for your assertion that the use of buffer tanks in any system is "lipstick on a pig", that is a discussion for another day and one you should probably take up with individuals like John Seigenthaler.
Let me know how that one goes....

If John Seigenthaler had to earn a living and make a profit by installing boilers, he might have a different opinion. This goes back to the engineer/contractor discussion. Seigenthaler is an engineer, pure and simple, and the installed cost is irrelevant. As an engineer, I know exactly why he loves the buffer tank and when one might need to use it. As a contractor, it's lipstick on the pig. Design the system without it in 99% of the situations and accept the limitations thereof.


Also, and now I'm going OT, if you press the "quote" key at the bottom of a post, you don't need to copy and paste. The post is already setup for you with a grey background and you reply beneath it.

I've followed Siggy teachings for quite some time, back to the days he started writing. We have had many conversations over the years. I would consider him a conservative, KISS engineer. Many times over the years he has cautioned about the cost and complexity of "modern hydronics' making the point that controls and add on should not exceed the cost of the heating plant itself!

Certainly if a magazine, customer or manufactures would ask him to design a system with all the options he is capable. He has the unique ability to explain why and the theory and numbers behind the choices, without a marketing or sales spin, on either basic systems or the loaded up designs. There is a buyer for all types, if a customer has money to spend and sees value in add on, profitable contractors embrace that. There are Timex and Rolex shoppers out there.

His focus currently seems to be pellet and heat pump systems which, by the manufacturers dictate, and to assure optimum performance and efficiency require buffer capacity. If that is the case providing piping options and talking about lipstick is a service to the industry.

Air to water HPs for example may be able to save or increase the hydronic industry's piece of the pie with cooling potential. Our industry is being squeezed by mini splits on the small end and VRF on the large end. Many say hydronics is a stagnant or shrinking industry. I applaud anyone that is trying to stay ahead of the curve and keep our industry relevant, and providing options and input on the latest concepts and products.

Siegenthaler is the correct spelling

STEVEusaPA

Hey Carl, I like this thread. For one thing it points out a problem on all kinds of forums.
Going off topic can have some good consequences. Going way off topic with back and forth bickering is never constructive. Notice in the above referenced thread the OP is gone...and who could blame them.
Yeah it's easy to have to respond to someone when you feel they are wrong, then they feel you're wrong, ad nauseam and then the train derails. Trump is the master of that...especially the 'ad nauseam' part.
Also some people just love to post. They have to contradict or agree, just to post.
I don't know anyone on here personally (I don't think), I have my favorites, but I tend to ignore someone who has to respond over and over, and quote everything and demand answers, just to win. Can't say I never did that, I'm not perfect but I try to avoid it.

...I do miss Icesailor, maybe he still lurks...

I like the tech to tech conversations. They do provide a lot of info.

Helping homeowners is always tricky for all the obvious reasons:
-don't know/can't get the full story.
-no eyeballs on the job.
With homeowners, almost all the time in these situations, the best responses are the same (could probably copy/paste):
-find a competent contractor/get a good design.
-do a proper heat loss.
-install piping/ductwork properly.
From there then you could get into equipment selection.
Always seemed odd to me that a H/O would pop on and ask complete strangers what to do. But hey, it's an entire industry.

Discussed before, other sites have locked threads for professionals, credits submitted), and one particular site gives no DIY advice-the thread gets locked and closed. Not my cup of tea, but they claim they could get sued if someone tried advice given and caused injury or death.
I have also seen pay sites where someone asks a question, and the response is..."For 'x' amount of dollars, someone can help you..." which reminds me of computer tech support, which is horrible.

On other sites, moderators will step in and warn people who aren't behaving, and throw them off.

Way more than my 2 cents worth.

--one more thing--
Don't forget, after you quote someone, you can go into the quote and edit it down to just what you need, no reason to post the entire copied quote to answer one question.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

I also run a forum, albeit much smaller than HH. I've also been on many forums for over 23 years.

My personal opinion is off topic comments increase traffic to both the forum, as well as the thread. Without such comments the thread would simply fall to the bottom and disappear, where off topic comments keep it near the top of the list and guys see the original thread title. This makes them often chime in and bring the thread back on topic.

Forums with strict rules on this are often very quiet, things go ignored or unanswered and traffic is very slow.

Point being I feel the benefits greatly outweigh the negative. Of course, my opinion on the subject is moot as I don't moderate this forum. I believe Erin wants people to get along and stop arguing with each other and getting nasty. I don't think she really cares so much about things going off topic. I could be wrong though. @Erin Holohan Haskell please comment?

Before anyone calls me on it, yes, I know I'm part of the problem. Not saying i'm not. I very often unintentionally go off on a tangent but I don't do it to cause confusion, it just happens.

Ya mean you don't like the lame "bump" post to get the topic back in action...

Charlie from wmass

You are still rude.

hot_rod

Back to the old quandary of the spoken in person conversation vs the typed word. Sarcasm is tough to get a read on in a chat room.

The old Wet Head gatherings were a good way to communicate and get a feel for personalaties.

Zman

Need I remind you, yet again, that you used one buffer tank in 30 years!!!

LMFAO.

Hatt,
I can't stop laughing and thinking about the scene from "City Slickers"
They are talking about using a VHS to record a movie while watching another show.
The one guy gets totally frustrated and says " the cows can record a movie by now, he's never going to get it"

You just did exactly what everyone is talking about and you don't even realize it.

People are entitled to have a differing opinion without you pointing out that they are hypocritical of incorrect.

They can just have a different opinion. Not black and white, not right or wrong, just different.

Charlie from wmass

My apology was sincere. You are still rude.

Harvey Ramer

With intelligent design it is often possible to eliminate a whole host of hardware from a system. Ball valves, drain valves, tanks, all sorts of things. That's better for everyone. And if engineers got off their collective rumps, and give us intelligent controls, we could eliminate even more hardware, and the industry could become more competitive. The contractors have to also step up to the plate and become more innovative instead of following the herd.

I personally enjoy the mix we see on threads a lot of times. I don't enjoy it when it becomes nasty. Insulting a man's work or his intelligence is not cool. There are other ways to get the point across, and nicely done, the other party is much more receptive to the proposed idea and we all walk away with something.

Charlie from wmass

Like the people who watch Rent and they do not realise it is them who are the villans of the play.

Steamhead

STEVEusaPA said:

On other sites, moderators will step in and warn people who aren't behaving, and throw them off.

Dan and Erin have both done this.

Charlie from wmass

It was to.Erin, not you Hat.

Steve Minnich

A couple things -

This thread is devolving into exactly what Carl was referencing. Same players.

John Siegenthaler is one my hydronic heroes and knocking him in any way is heresy.

I love using buffer tanks. It allows me to get jobs based on the end user's crazy ideas.

"Big boy pants". If I hear that one more time...

We are all men and women here and suggesting something else is childish, cowardly, and immature.

Gordy

I just want world peace.........

Charlie from wmass

Whirled peas are more likely.

Paul48

Let's all hold hands...........Kum ba yah!

Fred

First let me say I am not directing these comments to or about anyone specifically but I posted a similar comment last week on how a thread goes off topic. The thing that troubles me is not that there is disagreement between posters, on a suggested solution to an OP's issue; it is that the topic gets so derailed that it becomes obvious we've lost the person we are all here trying to help. At that point, any attempt to make comments (OT or otherwise) is a waste of time to the one who asked for help. Sure, it might help someone else, at some later time but that's not the point. Let's help the person who asked for advice, when they ask for it.
I also agree that there are some Posters who seem to post just to log more comments (or maybe they have other reasons, I don't know) and I can see how that can be very frustrating for the Pro's who come here and have limited time to spend helping others with free professional advice. Reading through 20 or thirty comments to see if the thread gets back on track isn't the best use of anyone's time. For that reason, I can understand why some of the Pro's feel a "private" Pro site is desirable, but hey, most of us want the benefit of your experience too. Maybe when we see a post that starts to go OT, one of the very next Posters can simply say "Different Topic, Please start a new thread".

ratio

Meh. I learned years ago that some people IRL are just pricks by nature. I learned to just run their words through a mental filter that stripped out all the hyperbole & opinionated bs. Made my job a lot easier! It didn't take a stretch to realize that some people on the intertubes are what I like to call "socially inept". Same mental filter. All good.

BobC

Over the years I've learned things go sideways when comments get personal. There is nothing wrong with asking why a person does something a certain way, if the answer you get back steps over the line just ignore it and move on.

Ignoring that type of person is the worst thing you can do to them.

Bob

Erin Holohan Haskell

Thanks for the feedback. When responding to questions, please try to stay on topic. We generally let the conversations flow organically, but if they are straying too far away from the original topic, we'll recommend starting a new thread.

And enough is enough with the fighting. I will not tolerate personal attacks. They are unprofessional, distracting, and reflect poorly on all parties involved in slinging insults. So stop. We’re here to learn from one another, so let’s get back to it.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I am and have been involved in a couple other forums. One is for everyone and another is for pros only. I have to say that the pros only is informative, but the language and overall banter was too much for me. I have to deal with that enough at work trying to keep the guys in line as it is. HH has always been a professional and cordial place with more of a feel of talking at a family gathering (we all have an uncle Buck or two). This is one of the best resources for heating tech with a lot of level headed thinking and good stories to boot.

Taylor

Tim McElwain

A hearty Amen to that Erin!