Correcting the code inspector

CLamb

About a year ago I was having dinner with an engineer who worked on a number of large commercial projects in the New York metro area. He mentioned that he sometimes had a code inspector ask for changes which weren't required by the code. He said he handled this by asking the inspector for a code citation because the company required that he give a citation for any work order for changes. The inspector invariably backed down after consulting the code.

How often does this situation happen to you folks? How do you handle it?

SWEI

I've had this happen in three different states. It's fairly common when we have an inspector who does not yet know us and our work. There's always the occasional bad inspector, but once we run a couple of bad decisions up the chain of command they usually settle down.

Rich_49

It happens here quite a bit . In Jersey you must require the inspector to cite what chapter , paragraph , sub paragraph you are in violation of . He must oblige . When he does this then you can attempt to have a civilized discussion with him in the case he is incorrect .In the case he is and does not understand or has an issue in interpretation we make a formal request for interpretation to the Division of Consumer Affairs , code assistance unit . They give us an opinion within 72 hours max but usually faster .
As Swei stated that usually calms the beast and they tend to become human and realize that they are not the Authority having Jurisdiction . By that I mean that most States have an adopted model code that the inspector enforces . He does not get to make up his own facts and rules , that's for Politicians

delta T

One of my best stories happened when I was 19. I have been doing this working for the family business for as long as I can remember so I had a lot of experience under my belt at this point but I looked like I was 15.

Some back story: My city went through a brief period where the AHJ decided that we were not allowed to use unions on gas lines any more, instead we were required to use LR nipples and couplings. No idea why and it was changed back the next year. We had installed a buried gas line (PE with anodeless risers) from the meter which was at the street to the house ~20'. Got an inspection with the line under 20 PSI and now had to get a final inspection with the line connected back to the house. I made two swing joints with 4 90's and some nipples and the LR coupling and nipple in between the two sets of 90's which allowed me to start the threads and tighten the coupling and everything pulled straight once the LR coupling was tight. Painted it, turned the gas on, checked for leaks, lit pilots and waited for the inspector.

He shows up and it was his second day on the job and boy was he an arrogant son of a......

He walks up to see little 19 year old me standing proudly next to my work.

Now at this point I have to tell you that the LR couplings that were being sold at my supply house at the time did not have hubs, they instead looked like thread protectors, except they had a big 'LR' stamped in the side. They were proper couplings with tapered threads, they just looked weird.

So up walks this inspector doesn't say a word just stares at the piping scowling for a good 2 or 3 minutes from 10' away. Finally he looks at me and says "Well, thread protectors are not allowed to be used on gas, but I'll let this one slide." To which I respond "That's not a thread protector its actually a LR coupling see? (pointing to stamp on coupling) anyways I wouldn't have been able to get this together without using a LR coupling and nipple." and being the little **** that I was (am?) I then said "so you would let a thread protector go? to my knowledge they have never been approved as fittings because the lack of tapered threads does not make for a good seal." He angrily scrawls a signature on the inspection ticket and walks off without saying a word.

He had so many complaints filed against him that he was taken out of the field after about two months. I heard though I never confirmed it that he threatened to call our local utility and request that they interrupt electrical service to a house undergoing a bathroom remodel when he walked in to do the rough inspections and saw an outlet without a cover on it in a room not associated with the remodel that the HO's were getting ready to paint. Gotta wonder sometimes.....

I think that most inspectors are doing a hard job as well as they can. I always try to be on site when the inspector is there to answer any questions and solve any problems right away. There are a few that I have seen though that just want to be "right" and are doing the job because they get some weird power trip from it. Those can be difficult to deal with, but it is usually an easy call to ask them to give you code citation for their requirement, or as SWEI says go a couple rungs up the ladder and it is solved easily.

ratio

There's all kinds of inspectors. Most of them are good guys (& gals), but you come across a bad apple from time to time. I always start out with the assumption that they're looking out for me, since I don't want to it wrong. If that proves not to be the case, well, sometimes they just want to talk, or show you how smart they (think) they are. I figure I'm paid to deal with them as much as I am able. Sometimes, though, I gotta buck it up to the office. It really helps that Big Daddy is neighbors with the previous chief building official...

Bob Bona_4

I had one come on job and tell me I don't run my pipes like "this". I am to run them like *this*.

He drew out an S and two bars thru it.

Fun

ratio

Heh. Word around here is that one inspector (asshat of the highest order) was run outta town when he insisted through official channels that a certain hanger he was financially interested in be used, he would accept nothing else. I never had a problem with with him, I had realized that he was one of those inspectors who will find something wrong. I always had something for him to find.

It got even better when I discovered that it didn't even have to be in the trade he was inspecting...

nicholas bonham-carter

How frequent is the S with the two bars through it brought up, (presuming he wanted a "tip")?--NBC

rick in Alaska

We ain't got none of them there inspecta's here, so no problems!
Well, except we now have gas here and they do inspect, and are good about it. but other than that..... we are on our own!
I did have some problems when I lived in Portland,Or and was doing fire sprinklers, but only until they got to know our work. Then they were easy to get along with. But yeah, always leave something for them to look at when they get there. We always left something minor, and then took them right to it to get there "opinion" on what we should do with it. Helps there ego a lot. Most of them were pretty good though.
Rick

CFH

In New York State the local building department has to petition the state to exceed the standard code. The form they need is attached.


Department of State
Division of Building Standards
and Codes
One Commerce Plaza
99 Washington Avenue, Suite 1160
Albany, NY 12231-0001
Phone: (518) 474-4073
Fax: (518) 486-4487
www.dos.ny.gov
Notice and Petition Relating to More Restrictive Construction
Standards (Uniform Code – Executive Law § 379

Mad Dog_2

If you do nice, clean work that's good enough for 90% of them, even if its the first time they're seeing your work.  Once you get to know their pet peeves and quirks, its a breeze.  The more active you are in your area say in PHCC or as a Plumbing board member, or if you're at alot of trade shows and seminars, that goes a long way for your reputation and peer review.  Plumbers and boiler guys are the biggest washer women and Yentas going...Word gets around fast...the good, the bad and the ugly.  Just like my father and older brother taught me: Be super respectful to Police, Drill Instructors, Football Coaches,  Bosses and figures of authority.  They eat it up and will give you a much easier time!  Mad Dog 🐕 

EBEBRATT-Ed

MA has procedures if you can't work out a dispute with an inspector you go to Boston (100 miles) and go before the State Board.
Most contractors don't want to lose a days work and most inspectors are not paid much and many are part time.

I had two instances (both electrical jobs) where I called the inspectors bluff and told them ("ok we will have to go to Boston") and they both backed down. Of course I had to here from them "I'll let it go this time" & Not in my town etc etc etc

But that was only twice in 46 years.

I found that most inspectors are pretty decent. They are used to contractors that don't know the code and are ready to argue and get real irritated when the contractors who are supposed to know the code go to them for advise on how to install something.

If you know the code and can get that across to the inspector they will usually respect you and you will get along with them fine.

Jamie Hall

I was a building inspector for a while -- and I learned a tremendous amount just talking to the various contractors we worked with. I remember a few times when we both sat down with the code book and tried to figure out what it really meant... and whether it made any sense to do it that way...

There were also a few times when my partner and I just pitched in and helped somebody do something. We had a big Ford Country Squire station wagon, and pretty much any plumbing or electrical tool you could want was in back there somewhere.

On the other hand, there were a few contractors -- out of state folks who didn't know how things worked in [unnamed State] who gave us a hard time, and we did have a few slightly quirky state-specific regulations. One of the things I learned rather early on was that it was literally impossible to do everthing exactly according to code (we used three -- National Electrical, Uniform Building, and National Plumbing -- this was years and years ago) and, honestly, if someone was being difficult...

ratio

Jamie Hall said:

One of the things I learned rather early on was that it was literally impossible to do everthing exactly according to code (we used three -- National Electrical, Uniform Building, and National Plumbing -- this was years and years ago) and, honestly, if someone was being difficult...

Ah, yes. The old do-it-one-way-for-the-inspector-then-change-it-for-the-utility. I remember it fondly.

Teemok

When I was young I had way more issues. Late bloomer, I looked 5 years younger than I was. At 27 I was running radiant projects for my own company in SF. Inspectors were unsure of me. Most didn't have clue about boilers much less ones with PVC as a flue. (they had just approved it in the city) I found there where generally three cases: Badge waver bullies who don't care about code, you or the customer, the genuinely ignorant and willing too learn and the ones who were right. When I was 100% sure I was right after check manuals or the code. I would appeal to sight code then logic and when the dull look in the eyes was apparent, I'd part ways and go straight to the chief inspector. It didn't take very long to have good relations and inspections.

EdTheHeaterMan

Back when I started working in NJ, there was no HVAC license. There was an electrician and a plumbing license but not HVAC. Since I was not an electrician or a plumber, I needed to get the local municipality contractor license in order to pull a permit. Since I worked the entire county, in some years I had up to 7 different licenses. I always renewed my Sea Isle City license because where I lived did not require a license. Then when I needed a permit, I would fill out all the forms and ask if this town required a municipal license? I showed my Sea Isle Local License, my insurance certificate and my registered company name for a NJ corporation. This was usually enough.

One time I had all the papers filled out for Lower Township NJ with the local license app, the sub-code form for plumbing, a gas pipe diagram and walked into the office and asked for the plumbing inspector. I told him that I was installing about 6 ft of gas pipe for a wall hung non-vented space heater. There was no electric, no chimney or vent connection and the gas company had already piped in the service riser from the street.

Now since I started work at 7:30 AM and the code office was not open until 9:30 AM and the plumbing inspector did not show up until 10:00 AM, I had 90% of the work done and just wanted to get the paperwork done so I could get a gas pressure test inspection.

This BOZO went to the customer's home and told her that she should not have let me into her home, because I was unlicensed, and had no insurance, and was probably going to try to rip her off.

That afternoon I returned to finish the pipe and put a pressure test on it. The customer started to scream at me and was so upset with me because of what the inspector told her. After she calmed down, I explained that I do not have a license in every town, but only get that town's license when I need to get a permit. I showed her the photocopies of the application, my insurance and the other 2 licenses I had from other towns. All good... Because I have been doing her oil burner service for about 5 years by then.

When I got the call from Lower Township three days later, to say the permit was ready and the cost was going to be a little over $300.00 and to bring 2 separate checks because the license and the permit could not be paid with the same check. No problem. I showed up the following day and got the breakdown for the permit and license

$100.00 License application for 1984
$ 75.00 License renewal for 1985 because the work could not possibly be inspected until the next year (it was November and they were sure that I was not going to be finished before the end of the year)

$35.00 Minimum charge for gas line inspection for a heating appliance (plumbing)
$35.00 Minimum charge for electrical permit. Obviously you need to wire up that heater
$35.00 Minimum charge for a fire inspection. Any gas heating appliance needs to have a fire inspection.
$25.00 The cost of filing a permit with the building department

So those 4 forms will cost $130.00

Total to get permission for installing a gas pipe and having it inspected $305.00

Do you know what I charged the customer for the gas pipe? $250.00 for parts labor and hanging the gas heater on the wall that she purchased from a big box store, where she wanted it.

So… Who is doing the ripping off here?

I called the Mayor’s office and said that the building department slandered ME, and my company in front of a Voter, The plumbing inspector told said Voter that I was ripping her off, And now wants me to pay them over $300.00 for permission to do a job that I only charged that voter $250.00 for. I made that call from the building department’s phone so they all could hear me.

As it turns out I paid for the license application $100.00 and 35.00 for the gas pipe inspection. It turns out that I did not need a building permit because the building was already there. The fire inspector only inspects the venting system on gas furnaces and boilers, and this was an unvented appliance, so nothing to inspect. And there were no electrical connections because the gas valve ran on a pilot generator. Even the optional fan would just plug into the wall. But what do I know, I was just a kid back then.

$135.00 and I only needed one check. The plumbing inspector wrote a letter of apology to that customer because he misspoke.

Mad Dog_2

Former plumbing and heating contractors are the best, most understanding and reasonable inspectors.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Intplm.

Long ago as we were getting to know the inspectors and they us. After a few inspections, they couldn't find anything against the code. Sometimes this would make them look even harder. Because of this, we would at times, intentionally leave something a bit off, "Against code"?
When they found it we would fix it right then and there.

Pass sticker issued. Thank you.

Most inspectors have been great. Working with them is always easier than against them. They can be very helpful. Sure some are knuckleheads telling you when to install a union or even to use a certain paint color.
What the........? Not a painter.

Most of the time they are terrific. It's like most anything else. Building good relationships.

HomerJSmith

A technique that I always use when dealing with an inspector, I learned from a woman. I was in a store discussing wallpaper with a woman and in making her point she said to me at the end of her thought, "Don't you think." Imagine that, a woman asking my opinion. I could have gotten down on my knees and kissed her feet, it made such an impact on me.
Asking an inspector for his opinion makes him an ally and will get you the most favorable outcome. Try it, it is magical words.

CFH

https://us21.list-manage.com/survey?u=6b72dbca942fe21bd43d07ce7&id=12fa710fe9&e=94a9d1f49f
Link to Nassau County controller survey for problems with North Hempstead DOB

jumper

How often will officials back down when asked for their order in writing?

jumper

Building used an old power boiler only for heating. O psi. B & M inspector wanted boiler tested on account of ASME stamp. Instead of discussing I ignored him. Guess I was the a**hole? Eventually inspector called officials and they made me test. I was upset at the time but years later I see it the other way.

Jamie Hall

jumper said:

How often will officials back down when asked for their order in writing?

Depends, I would imagine, on the inspector -- and how confident they were. That said, I would always have given you a full write up, back in the day, if asked. I always kept a written log, anyway.

Mad Dog_2

I've heard of a lot of plumber's say they do that. Leave something wrong.  I've never done that, but whatever works for you.  I almost always exceed minimum code standards, so I generally don't have any problems.  

As I've said before...you can be 100% correct, but guess who has the ultimate power?  The Inspector.  With 3 kids in Catholic school and a huge monthly nut, I NEEDED that final check from the client. Mortgage was gonna be late, et cetera.  

Sometimes I had to eat crow and just soothe their Pet Peeve to pass and get my check.. It was usually something very minor.  My philosophy is ...blow them away with craftsmanship & pride...give them no reason to fail you.  I totally understand and agree 100%  with going to the mat with them when you're in the right, just be prepared to wait for your $$$$ and a vicious counter attack, black balling, not showing up for your inspection....been there done that...got the T Shirt ..

.At a certain age or point in your career and if you're not behind the 8 Ball everyday, it would great fun to go at it with Rhetorical debates and code citations. I always loved the old timers in the supply house holding court and telling their war stories with homeowners, GCs and inspectors.  They had ALL the right answers, and questions and were "Jail House Lawyers," of the trade. They didn't take no crap, knew how to straighten out Inspectors, homeowners,  GCs who were out of line...THEY were local legends..And I overheard many an Inspector DREADING facing THEM because they knew their S--- and didn't take any.  Mad Dog 🐕 

Mad Dog_2

Ooohhh...That survey was fun, Paul...tanks..I was brutally honest but fair. In any case, its so much better than it used to be up there.  It was brutal for many years, but those people are long gone.  Always room for improvement.  Matt NYC 

Jamie Hall

We four back in the day (I was part of a team of four for the whole darn state!) always went into a project with the idea that we were a second set of eyes to check things (and sometimes hep out). Which is not to say that we didn't occasionally have to ask for something to be corrected; we did. We always learned something from the contractors -- and, perhaps, they from us.

Except...

for out-of-state contractors and their architects. They did have all the answers, and, if they were to be believed, they were always right and us country bumpkins didn't even know how to plug in a toaster. We weren't gentle (Tom and I were a little more polite than Ed and Bob, the other team) and it wasn't a matter of a check -- it was a matter of a certificate of occupancy. Be nice to us, we're nice to you. Play games... our secretary/coordinator, Donna, was a past mistress at not being able to contact us...

Intplm.

And at the end of the day, if you kill them with kindness, they are still dead at the end of the day.

A little diplomacy can go a long way.

Mad Dog_2

Good Cop (Serpico) 👮‍♂️ Bad Cop (Ippolitto & Caracappa)..Your in Mass, right Jamie?  Mad Dog 🐕 

Jamie Hall

In Connecticut now, @Mad Dog_2 . The state to which I was referring was Vermont -- before the flatlanders overran it.

Mad Dog_2

I Got a very close friend in Bennington.  We used to go to Offense-Defense Football Camp in Mount Snow 🗻.  I love Stowe..Deep Purple Cut their brilliant 1984 comeback album in Stowe...Its a great State.  I LOVERMONT 💘  .    Mad Dog 🐕