AC replacement Nutley NJ

Dave0176

Pulled a 37 year old Carrier AHU which was almost rotted in half, and 13 year old Heil replacement condenser. All duct work was replaced too as it was round duct board and falling apart. Plus the return was only 12" inch. I installed a 14 SEER York R410 system. Night and day difference.

Almost forgot to mention it's a three ton system.

Dave0176

I would post pics but I'm not quite sure how to do it anymore?

Never mind...,

Dave0176

John Mills_5

Everything looks really nice except that rusty old disconnect. $8.27 wouldn't kill the job.

JUGHNE

Question for everyone......when changing out an outside condensing, does your local code require a WP GFCI to be installed within 25' of AC unit?

Dave0176

John Mills said:

Everything looks really nice except that rusty old disconnect. $8.27 wouldn't kill the job.

I know it was a poor decision to keep the old box but I figured it's way more durable then a new one. This one is a heavy duty fused pull disconnect.

Dave0176

JUGHNE said:

Question for everyone......when changing out an outside condensing, does your local code require a WP GFCI to be installed within 25' of AC unit?

Not that I know of in Jersey. But who knows, the different localities each have their own codes.

Mike

Not on residential equipment, light and receptacle on commercial buildings. The light was required for the gas company. Most buildings close by 5pm (still light outside), and the gas companys don't have ladders. The inspectors are getting away from the light. Never lite the area you needed anyway.

SWEI

JUGHNE said:

Question for everyone......when changing out an outside condensing, does your local code require a WP GFCI to be installed within 25' of AC unit?

NEC

210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet. A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air- conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and within 7.5 m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.

Informational Note: See 210.8 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter requirements.

Exception: A receptacle outlet shall not be required at one- and two-family dwellings for the service of evaporative coolers.

UMC

904.10.2.3 All equipment requiring an external source of electrical power for its operation shall be provided with (1) a readily accessible electrical disconnecting means within sight of the equipment that will completely de-energize the equipment, and (2) a 120 V AC grounding-type receptacle outlet on the roof adjacent to the equipment. The receptacle outlet shall be on the supply side of the disconnect switch.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

JUGHNE said:

Question for everyone......when changing out an outside condensing, does your local code require a WP GFCI to be installed within 25' of AC unit?

NEC

210.63 Heating, Air-Conditioning, and Refrigeration Equipment Outlet. A 125-volt, single-phase, 15- or 20-ampere-rated receptacle outlet shall be installed at an accessible location for the servicing of heating, air- conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle shall be located on the same level and within 7.5 m (25 ft) of the heating, air-conditioning, and refrigeration equipment. The receptacle outlet shall not be connected to the load side of the equipment disconnecting means.

Informational Note: See 210.8 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter requirements.

Exception: A receptacle outlet shall not be required at one- and two-family dwellings for the service of evaporative coolers.

UMC

904.10.2.3 All equipment requiring an external source of electrical power for its operation shall be provided with (1) a readily accessible electrical disconnecting means within sight of the equipment that will completely de-energize the equipment, and (2) a 120 V AC grounding-type receptacle outlet on the roof adjacent to the equipment. The receptacle outlet shall be on the supply side of the disconnect switch.

So basically,
According to NEC it's not required, UMC says it is, and many local codes may not require it.

But, being it's so cheap and easy to install, and will make everyone's life far easier for the life of the unit, and every unit after it, it should be installed.

Did I follow correctly?

Personally, I also like the light idea. Things fail, sometimes at night, and even having the general area lit will make things easier.

Give the man an outlet, and a light, and a cold soda or water and he'll do better work on your equipment. Guaranteed.

SWEI

Close. Both codes require an outlet. NEC dictates that it be a GFCI outside of a residence (and in many/most commercial locations.)

The requirement for a weather resistant outlet originated with the 2008 code cycle.

Cheap and/or easy depends a lot on the particular job. Usually no big deal, but can be a PITA on existing 480V equipment or where old conduit is embedded in concrete or masonry.

Code adoption and modification is a state/local thing. The national code applies unless the local code strikes or modifies the specific section.

ChrisJ

SWEI said:

Close. Both codes require an outlet. NEC dictates that it be a GFCI outside of a residence (and in many/most commercial locations.)

The requirement for a weather resistant outlet originated with the 2008 code cycle.

Cheap and/or easy depends a lot on the particular job. Usually no big deal, but can be a PITA on existing 480V equipment or where old conduit is embedded in concrete or masonry.

Code adoption and modification is a state/local thing. The national code applies unless the local code strikes or modifies the specific section.

I was speaking more about residential use.

JUGHNE

Both codes require the outlet for new work. Question is if one uses the same disconnect for new AC, is he required to add the GFCI outlet? Sometimes changing the disconnect gets into the realm of "New Work".

Yes, all a good idea....but being "cheap & easy" is another issue.
You need to: provide a 15 or 20 amp circuit......a tamper resistant & weather resistant GFCI outlet.......an approved wet location "while in use cover"....possibly wiring back to a circuit breaker box and a circuit breaker. Is the HVAC contractor allowed to do this work or must he call in a licensed electrician?
I can see at least $150 perhaps for the electrician alone. Your competition could skip that outlet and any permit at all. Could be a make or brake amount for the job.....or not?

For small AC's, 1.5 to 2 ton, the min/max circuit breaker could be a 20 amp. For these I run 12-3-G cable and use the combo AC pullout with approved outlet included. The outlet shares one leg of the AC circuit, has it's own neutral and needs no additional CB or cabling. I had to quote verse and chapter of NEC to the inspector to clarify the correctness of the installation and he approved it.

My HVAC competition would probably have used the existing disconnect and been done with. The AHJ implies that a replacement AC unit must have the outlet installed.
I am 1 of 2 licensed electricians in my area. If I had hungry children at home and was waiting for the phone to ring I might bring the issue up...but that is not the case.

However on reusing the old disconnect, I know the old one was better (when new) than the new 9.95 item of today. The steel box is certainly much heaver gauge. The real issue are the guts inside that are not steel. The non conductive components age and loose their strength. If a knife switch, the fiber board that actually pulls the knives out of the contact point can break. I have had this on 3 phase disconnects where only 2 legs were opened......the unit stopped running......reach inside and grab that still connected leg and be surprised.
Fused pullouts, if they have gotten hot, will become loose connections and cause overheating of the brass cartridge end of the fuse and conduct that heat into the fuse and open the link early.
The customer doesn't know that the old box (when new) was better than the new box you might put in. If old fails then the question was why didn't you change it........if new fails then it isn't your fault. (The true answer is that they don't build them like they used to)

SWEI

We've been able to use the exceptions in NEC 422.31 to cover the disconnect requirement in most cases. Adding a lockable breaker tab when you're already in there installing and wiring a breaker is trivial.

Did get bit by 210.63 on a job earlier this year. Had to add an outdoor GFCI (at our expense.)

JUGHNE

I have always included the wall disconnect in any AC install or replacement if there was none there originally.

I like to have the power switch at hand when diagnosing compressor problems. This was firmly ingrained in me on trying to start a stuck compressor without a disconnect close. I thought perhaps I had solved the problem, left the little plastic cover off of the comp terminals and went around the house into the garage to switch the unit on. Came out side and witnessed the terminal block blown off and out of the compressor with fire and smoke. The oil shot out hitting a newly planted fruit tree. It seemed to be a long way back to the garage to shut off the CB. Here the panels are usually in the basement so this one was closer than the norm. Homeowner was watching, knew his compressor was dead by then but was more concerned about the tree. There are other war stories regarding lack of power disconnects, but this is the most memorable one.

The NEC 210.63 GFCI outlet is the one I question for replacements. I usually put one in as required. Even though none of my residential wiring or HVAC work required any permit/inspection.

Again, it is a card I could play if the completion steals a job for a lower bid of a 100 bucks or so and it is one I wanted......just about never happens. People either want me or not. Often no second bids gotten, so I am on the honor system so to speak.

I do use the NEC 422.31 for the inside unit of minisplits. The outside disconnect is lockable and no disconnect switch at the inside unit. This has always seemed to be a grey area but the inspected jobs are all commercial and inside maint/work done only by "trained personal".

ratio

ISTR that the code requires a disconnect "within sight" on ref. equipment. I've been failed in the past for that, although I do know & use the lockable exception when possible.

Another thing I've done is run the feeders for the mini split beside the indoor head & break them with the disconnect. Legit, & avoids any kind of joints or splices in the feeders from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit, some types of mini splits don't deal well with that.

SWEI

Residential air here is basically mini-split at this point, given our climate (design heating load is ~2X design cooling load, so inverters rock big-time.) Similar experience here with the indoor units. Took a bit of persuading (disconnecting the communication line causes weirdness) but they are now allowing us to use the <300VA exemption in 422.31 (A) for those.