Effect of replacing windows on heating

SWEI

Thanks. In this case, we are part owners

SWEI

The amount of labor (and mess) required for replacement handily justified the cost of good windows. These were finished in 70% Kynar, which is one of few things that will withstand the UV levels here. We could have spent more (for even more durability) but the sightlines would have been oppressive with these opening sizes.

The original steel windows lasted over 75 years. We targeted a 50 year service life for the restoration. The building should be there for at least another century.

SWEI

First they removed the operable windows along with glass or polycarbonate panes from the fixed lights. Next came plasma cutting. Next they removed the old sill tiles, kerfed the exterior masonry, and installed new bottom flashings. Then the finish carpenters cut and fit the exterior frames, at which point any remaining stucco issues were patched. Next the new windows are installed and secured, then foam gets injected, followed by bedding in the new interior sill with felt and mortar. Once that had set, new interior sills were cut and installed. Finally, the interior trim gets mitered and snapped in. They did them in groups of 3-4 rooms as I recall, because we had only so many cover boards for the openings. It took awhile to get the process down. I'd say 2-3 per day once we got rolling.

The blocking was cut from pressure-treated lumber and secured with Tapcons.

Gordy

So how many man hours a window Kurt?

SWEI

Backing the hours out of the job costs would take some work, but I can say that the total window job came to $186k.

60 room windows ~3'0" x 5'0"
46 room windows ~3'6" x 5'0"
30+ others ranging from 1'6" x 4'1" to 11'2" x 5'10"

$81,407 in materials (including a 35k order concession thanks to a factory f-up on false muntin color.)
$91,719 in payroll costs
$5,234 in architecture and engineering fees
the rest was mostly freight, tools, and compensating tax.

Gordy

You said 2-3 Windows? per day. How many men, and a day was 8 hours?

SWEI

It varied depending on what part of the building. This was in 2010, so I don't recall the exact staffing arrangement at the time. Our final payroll on that job had 43 employees spanning five trades.

Gordy

62 bucks a sf of glazing on a rough avg.

That's pretty darn cheap. Considering the detail of the recon.

vaporvac

I'd be fascinated to see any pics. Let's also remember that the Empire State building kept all it's old windows, but upgraded them to R8, in situ. (They also kept the steam and run it on~ 2lbs, but everyone here probably already knows that. )

SWEI

The bulk of the job photos are in an old iPhoto archive that I still have to unravel. I'll post a few when I can dig out.

We spent hundreds of hours on a plan to save the old steel-framed windows. The low-budget double outswing casements in the building were not all that architecturally interesting to begin with. After almost two years of wrangling with the State Historic Preservation Office (who was at the time promulgating a very fundamentalist interpretation of the Park Service Guidelines) we finally gave up. The investment involved just for the windows -- 1,354 new IGUs, acquiring a $50k sponge blasting rig, thousands of hours of labor, and adding storms -- did not even come close to being offset by the Historic Preservation tax credit. We ended up opting for what is referred to in the trade as Adaptive Reuse. We saved more money on energy in the first four years of operation than the tax credit would have been on the entire restoration project. Doing battle with a SHPO is something you probably want to avoid unless you're a preservation architect with a track record and a stamp.

Gordy

We have an architect in the Rockford, Illinois area that brings to life old buildings late 1800's on up. He is as you say in tight with historical preservation entities. I can tell you that helps immensely to have his firm spear heading the project. What also helps is being able to gel new construction with the old. He is fantastic at this, and the historical society gives latitude because of his ability to do so. Getting the owners on board is key also..

Gordy

Kurt,

Looking at your header, sill, and presumably side details. Most would have opted out of the aluminum grooved into the masonry. NP-1 would have made an air tight seal, and lasted 20 years plus. Not critsizing that design is a very good assembly, the only draw back I can think of would be masonry movement. I'm sure that was caulked anyway.

Again not critsizing, I actually applaud the detail. However most are always looking to change the design to trim man hours.

SWEI

I'm somewhat regularly working now with an up and coming preservation architect. We're both learning a lot in the process.

Our area is dominated by bad remodels, botched restorations, shoddy workmanship, and near-complete disregard for architectural skill and style. Oh, I feel so much better now.

Pardon my ignorance, but what's NP-1?

Gordy

NP-1 is a polyurethane caulk sealant. https://www.master-builders-solutions.basf.us/en-us/products/masterseal/2001

SWEI

Sonolastic, got it. We used Sikaflex 1A for that type of joint.

Gordy

Sikaflex 1A is comparable. All though it does not make the IDOT approved list. Not that IDOT's approved list is any type of gauge. I know the sonolastic grips masonary like no tomorrow.

wholesalerbill

Adding rads won't really help. You only have so many BTU's to get out of your boiler unless it's oversized. By the way, what kind of heat do you have? Steam or hot water rads? My house is 86 years old and I have steam heat. I've also been replacing my old single pane windows over the years with double hung replacements. Actually going to Home Schleppo this weekend to order 6 more. It has improved the warmth in the house replacing windows and brings up my house value and looks really good. The Schleppo has a replacement window made by Anderson (American Craftsman) that I've had good luck with. Just make sure whoever installs the windows doesn't use foam sealant. It expands and can ruin your windows over time. I use loose fiberglass to stuff up the cracks and phenoseal caulk to seal up where the trim meets the window. Good luck......

Gordy

?

roc_rktec

Speaking from the standpoint of a preservation architect, your money would be much better spent installing storms and repairing your windows. You will not be able to get close to the look and visual reveal of steel windows, especially if they look like the photo you posted. If you are much of a DIYer you can re-cement the lead cames of the panels pretty easily, and then you can reglaze the leaded glass panels into the steel window frames.

I have Truscon steel casement windows in my 1928 house and we are in the process of doing some repair work and installing storms.

There are countless studies by the Department of Energy, many Universities, and others that show unequivocally that you will never get your money back on replacement windows unless they last 35-50 years without breaking down. Old wood and metal window sash will vastly outlive their modern imitators both because of the quality of materials used and their single pane repairable construction. The Deadmen of windows built their windows like this so that incremental maintenance could be done to ensure a very long lived window. New dual or triple-pane windows are difficult or unable to be repaired and the seals on the insulated glass units break down in 15-25 years.

A large historic school, c.1910, in Rochester was poorly advised to replace their historic wood windows. The replacements due to their size were difficult to operate and quickly broke down necessitating replacement in under 15 years. The second round of replacements ran into similar problems, at which point they called our firm. We helped them have custom (very expensive) wood double hung sash fabricated almost exactly like the originals and installed. These sash have continued to work well and have outlasted the two previous rounds of replacements. However, if they had only repaired the original window sash they would have been out much less money.

Up here in Rochester, NY many of the more well preserved historic homes sell at higher premiums than those who have been remuddled over time. Your windows are a critical component to your home's character and style. You will irreparably effect that character by removing those beautiful leaded glass windows and consequently effect the resale value of your home. Don't believe the knuckleheads who tell you to waste your money on window replacements!

SWEI

I've got a serious thing for old buildings. The point of my posts above was really to point out that doing replacements right (50-year design service life with replaceable/repairable parts) is neither easy nor inexpensive.

jumper

East facing brick walls are a problem in Toronto Canada. I put steel siding over deteriorated walls on some residential buildings. Residents who used to complain that rooms were cold said that if anything the rooms were now too warm. Can't say that investment paid off in energy savings but was cheaper than continuously tuck pointing.

Gordy

My house is 64 years old. It has double hung cottage style multi lite panes top and bottom operable. I spent one whole summer burning windows down to bare would 62'years of paint reglazing, and painting. All Windows function like the day they were installed. You will never be able to compare to old growth wood. Yes I have storms, and screens.however the up front costs, and The ROI as stated above just is not there.

I did do a pella, and Marvin window custom replacement cost analysis. Materials were 36,000 dollars for similar style double hung double pane krypton gas, all bells, and whistles. Me doing the installation.

Interestingly there was one multi unit pella replacement in the house. It does no better energy wise than my old double hungs with storms.


@roc_rktec appreciate your input. Nice to have a preservation architect on board. It is an interesting, and fulfilling tangent to the proffesional.

Gordy

A side note Sherwin Williams duration, and emerald is the paint to use. It's been 3 years now. With no fading. Deep red burgundy color. Paint, and prime in one step.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

A side note Sherwin Williams duration, and emerald is the paint to use. It's been 3 years now. With no fading. Deep red burgundy color. Paint, and prime in one step.

Sorry but I've already lost faith in that process.
Anytime someone says "Paint and primer in one" I pretty much loose faith, especially when it comes to wood.

Of course, it could also just be that you're a hot water guy.

You sure that stuff bonded really good?

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

You sure that stuff bonded really good?

He'll know in seven more years.......................

Few things suck as much as when paint doesn't bond and it ends up pealing all over.

Something I'm dealing with right now due to the previous owner(s)

NY Steam Landlord

Gentlemen:
I have 84 apartments in NYC with steel double hung windows. They are cold. I added storm windows 20 years ago which is a temporary solution. Why? The primary window is nearly impossible to lift and shut - it's old - there are no counterbalances - the windows up and down motion is controlled by a coil springs that attach to the window. Rusty coil springs that cannot be replaced.

Building is masonry. Two forms of sizing new window (aluminum) - 1) smaller -new window fits into old steel frame - window is smaller and molding around window looks gargantuan as it has to be big enough to encompass the old window frame. Also makes the window smaller.

The better job is to chop out the old metal window frame and install the new window in the rough-in hole. Lots of plaster and masonry work but it looks great.

And there is no need to paint.

Do it once and do it right.

JUGHNE

Is Jeanc, the original poster still around?? Last posting was over a week ago.

Gordy

@ChrisJ I assure you it will last more than 7 years. It's all in the prep work.

You can do prime, and two coats of cheap paint. Or one step.

Get it down to bare wood is the key, all of it. If you have issues after that it's a moisture problem.

My talents exceed hot water I assure you.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

@ChrisJ I assure you it will last more than 7 years. It's all in the prep work.



You can do prime, and two coats of cheap paint. Or one step.



Get it down to bare wood is the key, all of it. If you have issues after that it's a moisture problem.



My talents exceed hot water I assure you.

I'm using Benjamin Moore Regal Select and still am using their oil based primer on wood.

Most wouldn't call that cheap paint.

KC_Jones

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

You sure that stuff bonded really good?

He'll know in seven more years.......................

Double/triple that, then maybe I will believe.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

KC_Jones said:

Hatterasguy said:

ChrisJ said:

You sure that stuff bonded really good?

He'll know in seven more years.......................

Double/triple that, then maybe I will believe.

Do you know of paint that will stand up 20 years without any peel?

Do tell. I'd like to find some.

Stop using cheap paint from Homer.

KC_Jones

The peel isn't the paint, it's bad prep or moisture. If it's prepped right it might fade and chaulk over time, but it shouldn't peel. Moisture coming from within the wood makes it fail also. I use a paintable water repellent preservative before I apply any primer. It adds a moisture barrier between the primer and wood to make the paint last much longer. It's something window manufacturers have been doing for years on wood windows. I can't guarantee any length of time, but I am seeing 14 and counting on my own house.

ChrisJ

Hatterasguy said:

KC_Jones said:

The peel isn't the paint, it's bad prep or moisture. If it's prepped right it might fade and chaulk over time, but it shouldn't peel. Moisture coming from within the wood makes it fail also. I use a paintable water repellent preservative before I apply any primer. It adds a moisture barrier between the primer and wood to make the paint last much longer. It's something window manufacturers have been doing for years on wood windows. I can't guarantee any length of time, but I am seeing 14 and counting on my own house.

Which preservative?

14 years is truly excellent.

Seriously Hat, there's paint in my house that was put in while Teddy was president and it never peeled.

Some of it became really dry and chalky, but the majority of it never came off of what it was applied to. Actually, a lot of that paint may have been put on while Abe was president, like on the clapboard and window sashes.

KC_Jones

This is what I have been using it isn't too costly.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Wolman-1-qt-Classic-Clear-Above-Ground-Wood-Preservative-Case-of-6-902/204746306?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|G|0|G-BASE-PLA-D24-Paint|&gclid=CjwKEAjwqdi7BRCL6Zmjk5-rsTwSJABmrVabN2PGL0Qdj5sA-HZL0MjzjM4FeMMEBCxoNCCPa5TwUxoC3kjw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

JUGHNE

ChrisJ, the secret ingredient for your old paint is most likely probably lead. IMO

Gordy

KC_Jones said:

The peel isn't the paint, it's bad prep or moisture. If it's prepped right it might fade and chaulk over time, but it shouldn't peel. Moisture coming from within the wood makes it fail also. I use a paintable water repellent preservative before I apply any primer. It adds a moisture barrier between the primer and wood to make the paint last much longer. It's something window manufacturers have been doing for years on wood windows. I can't guarantee any length of time, but I am seeing 14 and counting on my own house.

If you have moisture migrating from with in the wood, you better take care of that issue. Locking moisture in from invading the paint layer may prolong the paint, but unintended consequences will arise. That moisture will be in the assembly rotting the wood if not controlled, or allowed to escape.

Gordy

Most people don't understand the true value in " expensive coatings, or what makes them expensive. A 70 dollar a gallon quality paint will take extensive labor off the top, and material as in a true one coat, one step process.

I researched this extensively, and conversed with many true proffesional painters. A three coat process can be cut down to one with a quality paint primer all in one.

Duration, and emerald is a pleasure to work with, and true one coat coverage.

Can't stress enough the surface prep is key. Brush choice is key.

Lead has nothing to do with the longevity of paint, and everything to do with how well it covers. Oil base paint is garbage for UV resistance especially with dark colors.

I did not note that my rental was done with the same process with duration. Two years prior to the house, and before emerald came out. So it's been six years on that. No fading peeling. One coat.

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

ChrisJ, the secret ingredient for your old paint is most likely probably lead. IMO

Lead was only used as pigment, and no, only the newer stuff has lead in it in my house. By newer, I'm guessing 1930s-60s?

The really old stuff, has been lead free so far. I've been busy testing.

Gordy

Well it is everything to do with paint choice Hat. Brush choice, and technique.

Duration is a milk shake consistancy. It takes a learning curve to use, but once mastered you'll never go back.

Think of the time you save to prime coat. Let it dry. 1 St coat let it dry. Second coat. Forever...... Now think of how much extra paint you use, and primer.

If you settle for 35 dollar a gallon two coat paint, and 20 dollar a gallon primer you will use 70% more coating material, and spend more dollars on paint than using the good stuff.

Gordy

Burn it off with proper PPE. Get it down to bare wood all of it.