AC replacement System....

ant930

Harvey.... I am on Long Island... South Shore, Suffolk County

ant930

I WANT that system..... Only 1 company in my area though,.... going to call them today.... Are they expensive???.... Awesome reviews

njtommy

With a system like the Daikin or Trane vx20i you should be able to qualify for rebates from your state or local utility companies.

ant930

Anyone have a general idea of price of Daikin DX16SA??

GreenGene

Daikin is going to take over.

They bought Goodman to apply their technology to US type units.

They didn't just build a new facility in Texas with 250 shipping docks for nothing.

njtommy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqpf30tyzq8

ant930

Tommy... would this be more money than a Trane or about the same??? I've gotten estimates for Trane only all week and since I found out about Daikin.... asked for the proposal to include it in addition to the Trane...I guess you are in Jersey??? Seems yu have a favorable opinion of the Daikin as well.... but there is only 1 authorized installer here on Long Island

njtommy

Yes I'm in southernish NJ. Our company has installed a few Daikin Mini splits only. They seem to be very nice units. I have yet to use any of their other equipment, but hope to in the future.

The Price could go either way. I'm thinking the Daikin system could be a bit cheaper price wise.

These high end systems are going to be the norm and are the future of our trade. Being able to meet and match high to low loads for heating and cooling is great thing for efficiency and total home comfort. Single stage units are great, but tend to short cycle on cooler days when cooling demands are low. Which interms kills efficiency and lessens the life span of the unit. One of the same reasons you went with your high efficiency boiler.

But like you said you have to stay in a budget. You need to find the best bang for your buck. That being said. Most manufacturers make 16seer 2 stage condensing units. Most are say a 60/40 split or 70/30 split. Meaning 1 stage is 60-70% of the total tonage. So that will help with short cycling and low load cooling demands or hopefully dehumidifying on those wet days.

ant930

think i am going with the xr16 Trane.....??? what is your impression of that model?If I wait to get an estimate from the Daikin .... thats on the 22 and just want to get this done at this point..

unclejohn

Lennox has good equipment and reasonable pricing. get a quote from a lennox dealer. Also I have never used nitrogen when brazing. Even when I installed new work. I do how ever always use a dryer at the indoor unit right before the metering device.

njtommy

The XR16 is a solid single stage unit. Not to drive you or the contractor nuts I would look to see how much more the XR17 2 stage unit is.

Dave0176

Well I deal York and prefer the 14 SEER copper coil in fin design. Not a big fan of micro channel. I also deal Mitsubishi electric for mini splits.

Trane is good, very rugged. However getting parts could be a challenge as you really need to go to a Trane parts outlet.

ChrisJ

unclejohn said:

Lennox has good equipment and reasonable pricing. get a quote from a lennox dealer. Also I have never used nitrogen when brazing. Even when I installed new work. I do how ever always use a dryer at the indoor unit right before the metering device.

You're actually going to put that in writing, on a public forum?
Seriously?

Tinman

ChrisJ - Chill I'm sure Uncle John is a seasoned professional who is relying on a method that has been very successful for him. Demonizing him on a public forum is far worse in my opinion. How many systems have you installed by way of brazing? Your response reminds me of a favorite Teddy Roosevelt quote...goes something like this "It is not the critic who counts..."

ChrisJ

Stephen Minnich said:

ChrisJ - Chill I'm sure Uncle John is a seasoned professional who is relying on a method that has been very successful for him. Demonizing him on a public forum is far worse in my opinion. How many systems have you installed by way of brazing? Your response reminds me of a favorite Teddy Roosevelt quote...goes something like this "It is not the critic who counts..."

Demonizing him? You should know me better than that by now.


It doesn't matter how many systems I've installed, it matters what's considered proper methods by the manufacturers and the industry. If I need to defend my self with what work I've done, I work with flammable and toxic refrigerants that turn very acidic on systems that don't have a drier and I can braze a joint with the best of guys. You know as well as most on this forum I'm not a professional, though I do have my EPA card for the little it's worth. I could be wrong, but I feel anyone that can safely and confidently work with flammable refrigerants in general must have a decent skill set, no? Seems like many guys are scared to death of R-290.


It also matters what every manufacturer says must be done in their manuals.

Do you think Trane, Lennox etc would cover any warranties on systems he installed knowing someone didn't flow nitrogen as the manual says to?


My comment may have come across as crude, or insulting but that was not the intent, rarely is from me. Some things are lost in text.

GreenGene

Since R-290 is LP, liquid petroleum, propane whatever you want to call it I would at the very least respect the sheet out of it.

The problem is technicians get a can that says R- xxx, unless you do a little research you do not know what chemicals you are working with.

Suffice it to say that all the new refrigerants with the exception of Co2 are dangerous and should be respected, but so should they all, they are all harmful in some way.

ChrisJ

GreenGene said:

Since R-290 is LP, liquid petroleum, propane whatever you want to call it I would at the very least respect the sheet out of it.

The problem is technicians get a can that says R- xxx, unless you do a little research you do not know what chemicals you are working with.

Suffice it to say that all the new refrigerants with the exception of Co2 are dangerous and should be respected, but so should they all, they are all harmful in some way.

R-290 and R-600 are beautiful refrigerants.
If I had my way, I'd be cooling my house with either one. They're perfectly safe when worked with properly.

The main refrigerant I work with is R-611.
Boiling point at atmosphere is 89F.

AMservices

I braze refrigerant piping, always have, always will. When I started brazing nobody use nitrogen. Then electronic TX valves came out that have 500 increments of open and close. Even though it's always been recommended in the installation manuals, the manufacturer started highlighting it with these delicate parts.
So I watched the training videos and have seen for myself that running nitrogen through a pipe while brazing keeps the inside clean and looking like new, free of any carbon dust that could potentially clog the metering device regulating the flow of refrigerant.
I believe the reason ductless manufacturers only want you flaring connections is because they know that most contractors don't use nitrogen and all that carbon dust would be taking the electronic TXV out on Startup.
If you ask me if I always braise with nitrogen, I would have to say no . The only time I braze with nitrogen now is when I know I'm dealing with a electronic TX valve. I know it's not right and if I didn't have such a great track record of properly working refrigeration systems ( I know they're working to their full potential because I check super heat and sub cooling) and if I could say that there was any difference, other than the time it takes, I too would always use nitrogen.
So because I know its not right not using nitrogen and knowing what's going on inside the pipe while I'm brazing, I do what I can to help the situation by cutting down the amount of brazed joints using a ratchet Bender instead of a fitting and a hydraulic swaging tool instead of couplings.

Please, be gentle with your responses.
I'm really very sensitive

ChrisJ

https://youtu.be/3uP-eb8Zz08

SWEI

These make nitrogen purging & testing easy.

bob_46

Journeyman pipefitter here retired 15 years ago. Don't know how many thousands of feet of ref. pipe I've brazed some for the largest ref. contractors in the country, no nitrogen. Called some of my old fitter buddies and asked, ever use nitrogen on ref. pipe. They laughed, no. I always asked my employer if they wanted to use nitrogen always got the same answer no. We had nitrogen and the equipment on the job, used it for testing. I'm not saying this makes it right it's just reality. In contrast I've done lots of medical gas piping, always used nitrogen , same with Tig welding SS. You do it the way the contractor tells you. He signs your check.

ChrisJ

Bob,

Thank you for commenting as well.

It seems, I was wrong to say what I did to unclejohn. @unclejohn I apologize, apparently this is considered normal in the industry and you can't blame a man for doing what's normal and trying to compete.

That said, I still disagree with the practice whether it's "normal" or not.


@unclejohn nitrogen aside, I have nothing but respect for your work.

SWEI

As a guy who hasn't been doing this for years (I'm just starting out on R-410) I'm going to go ahead and RTFM for guidance.

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

Bob,



Thank you for commenting as well.



It seems, I was wrong to say what I did to unclejohn. @unclejohn I apologize, apparently this is considered normal in the industry and you can't blame a man for doing what's normal and trying to compete.



That said, I still disagree with the practice whether it's "normal" or not.





@unclejohn nitrogen aside, I have nothing but respect for your work.

I'll bet you use nitrogen in your car tires.

AMservices

In a pinch, I've used nitrogen in my tire. Works good. I filled my service van's tire after plugging a hole with 80 PSI (a lot faster then an air compressor) with my #40 nitrogen tank and pressing my yellow jacket hose into the Schrader valve pin.

I have another confession to make.
I don't triple evac my 410A systems either.
Has anyone?

njtommy

Ive done the same thing with the tires on my work truck. I even made up a hose just for filling tires or using air tools from Nitrogen tanks.

ant930

Oh MY.... this thread I started has become WAAAAYYY out of my league....lol...tried following .... but should I be aware of anything during my install... meaning... should I be concerned if the tech uses nitrogen?.. anyway after a whole week of getting and comparing estimates... am getting a Trane 16seer/13eer model 6048J and a variable speed airhandler, Tam7 Hyperion...Thoughts???? Again... Thank you all!

njtommy

Trane Tam7 AHU is one of the nicest I've seen it terms of quality and construction. And yes they should braze with nitrogen because that unit has a electronic expansion valve.

ant930

Thank you Njtommy... Is it standard practice to braze with nitrogen?... don't want to sound like a know-it-all.... I mean... they are the experts...me... not so much... how would i know if they are?

njtommy

Your welcome.

I would not call it standerd, but it's common.

ChrisJ

@ant930
As was said, apparently it's common but I would request it be done. From the sounds of it, the guys would use it if requested but it'll be on your dime. But it's worth it in my opinion.

Whoever quotes you just tell them you want them to "flow nitrogen while brazing". Make sure they are aware of it during the quoting process, not after.

Harvey Ramer

Flowing nitrogen while brazing is SOP in my book. I have had more than one commercial refrigerator unit that was running excessively high head pressures due to a clogged copper spun drier. The black soot like substance that clogged the drier looked eerily similar to the carbon dust created while brazing.

hvacfreak2

Edit : I was replying to page 1 , shoot

Mitsubishi S Series is a single phase VRF that seems to work really well in residential. It also uses the same controls as the larger VRF line. Daikin and Samsung also have single phase VRF but neither seems to offer the control options as Mitsu. just to say. The Mr. Slim line has really taken off as well.

Lennox now has a hot gas reheat coil for dehumidification that I have seen recently. That provides an affordable way to actually have humidity control for residential applications ( with a standard 2 pipe line set ).

hvacfreak2

Ok , Nitrogen , yes , yes I have carried a tank or 2 in my travels.

I always purged while I brazed so long as it was reasonable to do so. That meant things like reasonable access , budget , if I enjoyed being at the site or not. From my knowledge of my work over the years many of the jobs that I did not purge have lasted over 15 years however there is 1 heat pump system that sticks in my mind that it may have had an effect. As mentioned , VRF systems and the like it is mandatory to purge.

There is 1 supply house chain in my area that carries 125 cu. ft. aluminum nitro cylinders that weigh much less than a steel 80 , just to say.

GW

Hi ant, you're likely not going to know if nitrogen is used, a triple evacuation is employed, unless you stand there and watch the techs do their thing. I really try to stay off the soap box, but in general the lower tier shops don't do this and the big shops with sales people and middle management people may not do this either.

If you ask, "hey Mr hvac tech, just curious, will you be doing xyz when you install the new system? " I already know the answer, YES, what other answer would you expect.

The measures being discussed were less of an issue with R22. R410a or makes more sense to step up the process.

Here is my simple and basic barometer for a "good" hvac co: the air filter they are installing speaks volumes to their level of quality. A 1" filter is old school, and it has no place in a modern hvac system. If it can't fit (yes in some closet installations it doesn't work now matter how brilliant the hvac guy is), that's one thing, but if we are talking new install (is this a changeout or a new system? ) then a good 5" filter should be installed.

I am really surprised how many companies still install 1 inch filters.

If you decide to pursue some of these questions you need to do it with a certain amount of tact.

Best of luck, Gary

ant930

Is this necessary (braze and purge) if the line set and all pipes and fittings are being changed? Sorry... Novice learner over here!...lol

Tinman

It doesn't matter if the piping is new or old. The contamination that we're referring to happens during the brazing process irregardless. The nitrogen purge prevents that contamination.

ant930

Thanks Gary.... for all of your help regarding my Bosch,,,,, as well as today! I would totally expect them to tell me "yes" they are doing "XYZ" and truthfully.... even if I stood there watching (which I personally would hate if I was the installer and would never) ....I wouldn't know what they were using... Feeling like I got in a bit over my head here but just gotta trust my instincts and new-found knowledge from all of you...

ant930

Now I understand a bit better... Thanks Stephen

Tinman

@GW - Respectfully, I disagree on the deciding factor between a good HVAC contractor or a bad contractor being the decision between a 1" filter and a 5" filter. I hate hitting the "Disagree" button though without an explanation. It feels like cowardice to me. Different strokes (choices) for different folks (customers).

This past week I installed 2 - 80% efficient furnaces in a very old 2 flat apartment building in Chicago. They were always heated by free standing Williams gas heaters or the like. Their budget was severely strained with that move but they felt like kings with "real" furnaces and some custom made sheet metal.

In a perfect world...