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AC replacement System....

ant930
ant930 Member Posts: 111
I'm BAAAACK..... And since you all were so helpful when I replaced my heating system with a Bosch gas condensing unit, (my new LOVE), I thought I would get more expert opinions on a new central AC system.... currently have a Trane XE900....It has a small leak not worth finding or fixing since its almost 30 years old....Rheem has been recommended so far or American Standard......but have read mixed reviews on these as well as Trane...On a budget of around $7-8000... May be able to go a bit higher......Any input very much appreciated...
LouisFournier
«13

Comments

  • John Mills_5
    John Mills_5 Member Posts: 950
    We've sold American Standard for 24 years, Rheem for 30. Obviously we are sold on the product. I'd lean a bit toward American Standard & Trane personally, some stuff I like better about their design & construction. Key is RIGHT SIZE, good duct system and great installers who do the job right.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    Aren't the American Standard A/C Products manufactured and basically the same as the Trane units?
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    I also heard that Trane bought American Standard A/C products.Also... Thank you for quick response :)
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    edited June 2016
    It's hard to say if they are the same when made by the same companies, Carrier has Bryant and Payne, Bryant is usually equivalent to Carrier, Payne is the builders special, with the Payne condensers there's no bimetal plate in the bottom to absorb the noise from a scroll compressor so their decibels are higher, on the Am Stan vs Trane not sure, if it's the same manufacturer but less on price there's usually a reason.
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    If you are going to stay in the home go for the higher SEER and variable speed models to reap higher efficiency.
    njtommy
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
    Hey there!.......Did you finally get that boiler purring? Was it just a matter of settings?
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    I DID!! Thanks to all of you.... It has been purring ever since and I appreciate all of your help... thats why I am back cause I trust all of your opinions...
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
    "It's hard to stop a Trane"
    So true
    Aside from the name, I think the only thing that separates it from American Standard is warranty options.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,736

    "It's hard to stop a Trane"

    So true

    Especially a Trane Vapor system from the early 20th century

    (couldn't resist)
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    SWEI
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    I am leaning towards a Trane.... but keep getting estimates from contractors for Rheem 16 SEER.... Are Rheem systems good?.... Don't want any problems down the road as am hoping to retire in 2-3 years .... and def won't be able to pay high repairs..... or any repairs...lol
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
    Any HVAC system is only as good as the contractor that installs them. I Have Seen Rheem, Carrier, Trane, York system 30+ years old.
    What it boils down to is how tight the piping is, how correct the refrigerant charge is, how properly your ductwork has been designed and keeping up with your air filter will give you the best chance of having a problem free system.
    I would still choose Trane over anything else. ECM Motors and a good compressor warranty are definitely worth the money.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,494
    edited June 2016

    Any HVAC system is only as good as the contractor that installs them. I Have Seen Rheem, Carrier, Trane, York system 30+ years old.
    What it boils down to is how tight the piping is, how correct the refrigerant charge is, how properly your ductwork has been designed and keeping up with your air filter will give you the best chance of having a problem free system.
    I would still choose Trane over anything else. ECM Motors and a good compressor warranty are definitely worth the money.

    You forgot flowing nitrogen while brazing.
    Probably the #1 thing contractors fail to do and it ultimately results in the system failing prematurely long after they're gone.

    If they don't have nitrogen hooked up when they light the torch, throw them off your property.

    This of course doesn't apply to systems that use flare connections.



    I wonder how many contractors actually pull a good 500 micron or lower vacuum for the proper length of time? I also wonder how many mini-splits end up connected without a vacuum even being pulled.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    GreenGene
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I confess that in the 80's I did not use nitrogen flow or a micron gauge. To my knowledge, not one of the Rheem units that I installed back then failed. Some have upgraded because of efficiency but most are just reluctant to replace something that's been so trouble free. There were some leaks in A-coils but not a single failed compressor. I'm not advocating that today but its hard to argue with that track record.

    I'm a Trane dealer now but have sold just about everything but the lower end units. Competent installer is key.
    Steve Minnich
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,494
    edited June 2016

    I confess that in the 80's I did not use nitrogen flow or a micron gauge. To my knowledge, not one of the Rheem units that I installed back then failed. Some have upgraded because of efficiency but most are just reluctant to replace something that's been so trouble free. There were some leaks in A-coils but not a single failed compressor. I'm not advocating that today but its hard to argue with that track record.

    I'm a Trane dealer now but have sold just about everything but the lower end units. Competent installer is key.

    Perhaps, and I understand you're not advocating that today.

    But it's hard to argue that I don't want a bunch of abrasive dust in my system, isn't it?


    Regarding a micron gauge, I tried vacuuming using just my manifold set and I gave up. I had no idea how good my vacuum was.

    To give an example, even assuming the cheap gauge on a manifold set is near this accurate, 29.14" HG is 20,000 microns. 29.916" HGis 100 microns.

    How are you going to be able to tell if you're below 500, or above 20,000!?

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    I understand. My MO back then was to throw the vacuum pump on the unit as soon as I leaked check the system. While the pump was running, I'd do the electric, drain, low voltage, etc. Pump was running for at least 2 hours each time.
    Steve Minnich
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,494

    I understand. My MO back then was to throw the vacuum pump on the unit as soon as I leaked check the system. While the pump was running, I'd do the electric, drain, low voltage, etc. Pump was running for at least 2 hours each time.

    Yep,
    And if your oil wasn't perfect, or a hose or connection had a tiny leak you had no way of knowing and you didn't pull a deep enough vacuum.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Tinman
    Tinman Member Posts: 2,808
    As it turned out, I must have. :smile:
    Steve Minnich
    ChrisJ
  • Matt_67
    Matt_67 Member Posts: 284

    Check out this York install manual from the 80's - pre EPA rules. No vacuum pump needed - still had nitrogen purge though. I actually think the purge is much more important now with the POE oils the a/c units use. For the OP - we sold York back in the 80's and Trane since the early 90's and have had good success with both - We like the Trane equipment - but good installation is the most important.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited June 2016
    I would recommend Trane aswell there 20xvi stuff is awesome. Don't be afraid to look in to Mitsubishi systems aswell. They make a traditional style air handler now that is 33seer that is fully modulating to match the ever changing loads.

    Steer clear of anything like York condensers with Mirco channel coils. They are very problematic with leaking.
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    so I gaot an estimate for the Trane XB16 series... specifically model 6049.... only one that does not specify that it has a "Climatuff" condenser.... has a single stage compressor.... would I want that or a variable speed?.... Thank you all again
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    K.... so I found out that this series is the "builders' install.... good?... bad??

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,494
    edited June 2016
    ant930 said:

    so I gaot an estimate for the Trane XB16 series... specifically model 6049.... only one that does not specify that it has a "Climatuff" condenser.... has a single stage compressor.... would I want that or a variable speed?.... Thank you all again

    I'm not a pro, with that in mind, personally I'd go for a variable speed compressor.

    I'd wait from feedback from others, just in case there are reliability issues or something but likely not.

    Typically "builders" series of stuff really means "cheap junk". :(
    Not sure if that's the case here, but, usually, it is.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Depending on where you live I would recommend it so you are able to control Humidity levels with out the T-stat calling for AC. Also they are very energy efficient if you have High electricity rates.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    Builders grade is just that cheap.
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    Awesome!! Thank you! Made my decision a lot easier
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 610
    Yes the "builders series" are the "discounted series" usually meant for contractors putting systems in new apartment complexes or developments where the new homeowner isn't thinking about their new AC system and curtain color is the main concern.
    usually only come with a 5 year compressor warranty 1 year parts
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    You guys are great and a big help! :)<3
    njtommy
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,494
    edited June 2016
    Best way to put it into perspective is, you know when you go to buy appliances, there are the really nice, expensive ones that work nice, and look nice and hopefully last?

    And then, there are the bottom of the line stripped models that are really cheap, and always installed in apartment buildings?

    Builders grade is the apartment appliance. The $400 dishwasher that you need to run 3 times to get the dishes clean and it sounds like a dump truck going through a nitroglycerin plant.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    njtommy
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,494
    I guess I was typing at the same time as @AMservices ;)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    A properly sized and installed variable speed compressor system (like the XV20i Tommy mentioned above) can provide significant improvements in both comfort and efficiency.
    njtommy
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    I bet the XV20i is awesome...... however..... my fixed income....no raise job says no.....lol.... but I still want a good reliable trusted brand ... Wish I could get their top of the line like I felt with my heating system...so I have to compromise a bit...
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited June 2016
    Well that changes the conversation a bit, but I recommend making sure the unit you pick or get a condenser that comes with low pressure and high pressure safety switches having both will help save your compressor if you have other system problems.
    ant930GreenGene
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    so... just thought of another question based on the 3 estimates i got...Would you go with a Rheem 16 SEER RA16 with a X13 ECM Motor.... or the Trane I wrote about... XB16... OR the Trane XR13 that I am not really considering.... but thoughts?... Pleeze
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    Harvey.... where are they from and why has nobody mentioned??? I never heard of that brand but open to quality and not just name brands.....Where do you install them?
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    edited June 2016
    The type of blower motor is an important decision to make.
    Here is how you ascertain whether to use the x13 ECM or a variable speed ECM. You have to have a cooling load performed on the house and from that number determine the required cfm. The required cfm is flexible from about 375cfm to 450cfm (per ton) for decent cooling and dehumidification. It depends on your climate. If you live in a humid climate you'll want to shoot for the lower cfm range. Opposite if you live in a dry climate. A higher cfm and higher evaporator temp will produce higher unit efficiency as long as the ductwork is not restrictive. A txv should be used on the evaporator to ensure higher efficiency.
    Once you have determined your desired cfm, you need to check what the ductwork will support at a reasonable esp. Typically you can use your existing airhandler and blower charts to determine the esp at the cfm desired. Or at least plot a reference graph. Once you have all that figured out, it's time to select the proper motor. If the esp is above .7, do not install a variable speed ECM. Use the x13 or a standard motor. If the esp ends up being .5 or lower, by all means put in the variable speed blower. In between .5 and .7, pick your poison.

    You should be able to pair a variable speed airhandler with the 16 seer AC unit. It should also give you advanced dehumification options.

    In my opinion, there is not a heck of a lot of difference between most major manufacturers. Proper sizing and component/feature selection is far more important.
    njtommyGreenGene
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    Daikin is worldwide and also the largest HVAC manufacturer in the world. They came to the American market about ten years ago. Top shelf quality equipment. I haven't had any trouble with them.
  • ant930
    ant930 Member Posts: 111
    Thank you Harvey,,,,, Will ask about it in my area...
  • Harvey Ramer
    Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,239
    What is your area, if I may ask?
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    I've seen plenty of Daikin VRV systems on roofs lately among other brands. They look like really nice units.