Replace oil steam system with...?

Jamie Hall

Isn't the bottom line is all of this simply that each application, each customer, each install, is different? And folks need to be open to all the options, evIery time.

I, for one, would never be happy with -- nor trust -- a contractor who was not. I'd want one who was sufficiently familiar with all the possibilities to be able to give me a pretty good summary of the advantages -- and disadvantages -- of the available options.

Solid_Fuel_Man

I'm not at all saying that it is not a good technology. My point is with mini split systems, cooling only is a completely different animal. Especially as those Sanyo, Mitsubishi, Daikin, etc are made in Japan and are not inverter driven compressors. Also they don't have to run in the winter. Manufacturer's published outputs in heating don't take into account for outdoor humidity and coil frosting which in our area is very high. They do work well and we have many many happy customers. My point is that they are new, largely unproven in our climate. As well as some people think a mini split will heat everything for almost free.

SFM

Dave0176

I grew up from a baby living steam heated houses, I didn't know what it was like to not live with steam, until I got married and bought my own house, with an oil fired warm air furnace. While there running and your standing in front of the register your comfortable, when it reaches temp and shuts off your cold. Not to mention the bloody noses dry ace heat, it suxed to be quite honest. I ripped it out and installed a hot water system which was better but not the way a steam system makes you feel.

Ductless systems are much like warm air not as blazingly hot but once off you will feel cold again as no hot air us being blown.

Just my 2 cents...

EnergyMiser

Is it safe to say that not all mini split heat pumps are created equally? For example, could some of the systems that don't perform as well be older technologies or not designed to function as well at sub-zero temps?

SWEI

I would say that is a fair statement.

AMservices

The new ductless systems today are designed not to shut off. Just like a properly designed condensing boiler, it will keep a low steady flow of BTUs entering the space( because we know that there's a low steady flow of BTUs leaving the space) and rather than having a temperature swing of even 2 degrees, it will modulate itself to Flatline the temperature.
Only if the equipment senses that it has lost 25% of its capacity due to extreme temperatures will it shut down, or the off button on the remote works too.

Every install is as different as the homes, the applications and the customers.
Sometimes ductless doesn't fit the build or the budget for the home or the owner .
A good contractor should be able to explain all the options, pros and cons of any heating or air conditioning system available.
if I walk into a house looking to give a customer a price for a new HVAC system and I see that a hi-velocity system will be the most cost effective way to give the people what their looking for, then I'll be able to explain why that's the best fit for their home and why anything else would be more difficult, invasive and more expensive to install.
When the day comes that I can give people the option for a new vapor vacuum steam system, I'll be telling people thats their best option in terms of being the most efficient, reliable, comfortable and long lasting heating system to have.
Thank you Dr. Zhadanovsky's

ChrisJ

What could you do for me with mini-splits?

AMservices said:

The new ductless systems today are designed not to shut off. Just like a properly designed condensing boiler, it will keep a low steady flow of BTUs entering the space( because we know that there's a low steady flow of BTUs leaving the space) and rather than having a temperature swing of even 2 degrees, it will modulate itself to Flatline the temperature.

Only if the equipment senses that it has lost 25% of its capacity due to extreme temperatures will it shut down, or the off button on the remote works too.



Every install is as different as the homes, the applications and the customers.

Sometimes ductless doesn't fit the build or the budget for the home or the owner .

A good contractor should be able to explain all the options, pros and cons of any heating or air conditioning system available.

if I walk into a house looking to give a customer a price for a new HVAC system and I see that a hi-velocity system will be the most cost effective way to give the people what their looking for, then I'll be able to explain why that's the best fit for their home and why anything else would be more difficult, invasive and more expensive to install.

When the day comes that I can give people the option for a new vapor vacuum steam system, I'll be telling people thats their best option in terms of being the most efficient, reliable, comfortable and long lasting heating system to have.

Thank you Dr. Zhadanovsky's

What's the minimum btu/h output they can do?

Just pulling numbers out of the air here, I would guess I would want 12,000 btu/h on my first floor and 18,000 btu/h on the second floor for cooling. And I need 70,000 btu/h for heating for both floors on a 0F day +-.


There's days my steam system only produces 5000 btu/h for the entire house distributed to all 10 radiators and it appears to be continuous because the cast iron radiators act like buffers.

What can you, as a good contractor do for me with mini-splits?

AMservices

It's tough to say not knowing the layout of the rooms in your house. If I'm installing a unit in a room with a closing door or a narrow opening I do not over size hoping that the air will work its way into the other rooms.
Room dimensions and Depending on how far the indoor Zones are from the outdoor unit or units, would tell me what combination of equipment would work best for you.
Even though I say I don't oversize, sometimes it's your only option. when somebody asks me to put a unit in a room 10 x 10, the smallest head I can install does 7000 BTU cooling output. It never ends up being a problem because the system's only work as hard as they have to and the 7000 BTU head will modulate down to 3000 BTUs.
With ductless systems it safe to have a system installed 20% larger then the load because it turns down 50%of its capacity and still be efficient.

ChrisJ

AMservices said:

It's tough to say not knowing the layout of the rooms in your house. If I'm installing a unit in a room with a closing door or a narrow opening I do not over size hoping that the air will work its way into the other rooms.
Room dimensions and Depending on how far the indoor Zones are from the outdoor unit or units, would tell me what combination of equipment would work best for you.
Even though I say I don't oversize, sometimes it's your only option. when somebody asks me to put a unit in a room 10 x 10, the smallest head I can install does 7000 BTU cooling output. It never ends up being a problem because the system's only work as hard as they have to and the 7000 BTU head will modulate down to 3000 BTUs.
With ductless systems it safe to have a system installed 20% larger then the load because it turns down 50%of its capacity and still be efficient.

So clearly when it comes to heating in areas that actually get cold, you're never going to be able to install units that can carry the heatload, and, modulate down far enough to make it seem continious.

As I said, 70,000 btu/h at 0F, but only 5000 btu/h on more mild days.

Cast iron and radiant is still king.

SWEI

AMservices said:

Even though I say I don't oversize, sometimes it's your only option. when somebody asks me to put a unit in a room 10 x 10, the smallest head I can install does 7000 BTU cooling output. It never ends up being a problem because the system's only work as hard as they have to and the 7000 BTU head will modulate down to 3000 BTUs.

Don't forget that the outdoor units also have a minimum modulation rate. This becomes critical on multi-split systems. If that room with the oversized indoor unit is the only one calling, the system will fire up additional heads as needed in order to meet the outdoor unit's minimum.

I've grown rather fond of the mini-duct style indoor heads. When properly sized and ducted, they deliver superior indoor air distribution and architectural appeal. Design for a standard size two inch air filter on the return and you get a really nice system.

AMservices

I have seen cathedrals ( literally, the house of God) with wall hung mini splits in between every stained glass window.
If it's good enough for him, who am I to question they're Divine properties?

ChrisJ

AMservices said:

I have seen cathedrals ( literally, the house of God) with wall hung mini splits in between every stained glass window.
If it's good enough for him, who am I to question they're Divine properties?

That's the response you're sticking with?

AMservices

I just don't know what other example I can give to explain that there is the right combination of ductless units for any application. Unless of course you live in an area where the temperature outside is constantly hovering around 0 degrees and there's never any need for air conditioning.
Steam is king. and I never once said that I design ductless systems without a secondary heat source.
If I had a vapor steam system, I'd probably run that over a ductless system too, because I understand having lived with steam how comfortable the cast iron feels.
But correct me if I'm wrong, nobody's been able to make a residential steam system provide air conditioning yet have they?
And if they haven't I don't see a nicer system that can make your living space as comfortable, almost year round.

When the day comes that I can offer homeowners a new steam system as an option for heating their home, I'll still be talking about ductless systems for their air conditioning.

ChrisJ

Steam air conditioning.

Hmmm.

If you could get the system running around 29.5-29.7"HG it could happen. Would need a dehumidifying system though, much like with radiant cooling.

Would need a way to feed water back to the radiators continuously as well.

@Pumpguy ?

AMservices

Steam air conditioning.

Hmmm.

If you could get the system running around 29.5-29.7"HG it could happen. Would need a dehumidifying system though, much like with radiant cooling.

Would need a way to feed water back to the radiators continuously as well.

I had a felling you were going to say that. I've thought of it too.
What temperature is that, 40-50°F?
You wouldn't even have to fire the burner, as long as it was hotter where the radiator was the steam would go there, slap a drip pan under the radiator and a drain line to outside and your done.
"STEAM AIR CONDITIONING"
"Ductless" was taken already
You think the radiators will rust outside-in?

BobC

At 50F how big would the radiator have to be to get 6 or 8,000 BTU's of cooling?

Bob

AMservices

BobC said:

At 50F how big would the radiator have to be to get 6 or 8,000 BTU's of cooling?

Bob

Great question Bob.
I think I'll let the co. Inventer "ChrisJ" answer that

ChrisJ

BobC said:

At 50F how big would the radiator have to be to get 6 or 8,000 BTU's of cooling?

Bob

You're off the xmas list Bob.........

BobC

If 1 sq ft is 240 BTU at 215F at a room temperature of 70 I would guess (and maybe wrong) the that 1 sq ft at 50F might only be about 1/7th as much???

Bob

jumper

Complaints I hear about with minisplits have to do with condensate pumps.