Do you set up your hot water storage tanks properly?

ChrisJ

GreenGene said:

ChrisJ said
"That's fine,
But what if she fell nose down? She would've drown so should we stop everyone from taking baths?

I understand the concern, but I don't agree with it."

No, of course not, but fact is scalding is a major problem, especially with children and the elderly.

Hot Water Causes Third Degree Burns…
…in 1 second at 156º
…in 2 seconds at 149º
…in 5 seconds at 140º
…in 15 seconds at 133º.

Hot tap water accounts for 17% of all childhood scald hospitalizations.

So you're telling me you could easily hold your hand in 140F water for 5 seconds?

have you ever tried? That's what I have a beef with, people post these numbers as if 5 seconds is fast. Like I said previously, 5 seconds is an eternity when you feel that kind of pain.


Canada apparently feels different, they seem to still recommend 140F for most homes.

https://canadasafetycouncil.org/home-safety/heated-debate-about-hot-water


I'm all for mixing valves at each fixture, but don't like the idea of running the system cool.

Rich_49

GreenGene said:

I just read a Euro report on what they do which stated- "A number of states in the United States require water heaters be installed with the thermostat at 122F and studies there showed that the legislation has led to a reduction in tap water scalds with
no increase in cases of Legionnaires’ disease."

That is a complete lie, 122F is a perfect breeding ground for legionnaires’ disease. I've never heard of states requiring 122F either.

Oh , look at that , the Europeans looking here . Wait till they see the increased number of cases of PEE-NA-MONY-A that are actually legionaires .

Gordy

Here is the thing. Legionella hits people with immune, and respiratory deficiencies. If you are healthy, as most people are then you may not get it. So to say having a tank temp at 122 with no increase in cases is not really a worth while statistic.

Gordy

As Rich alludes to how many cases go undiagnosed, or miss diagnosed as other illnesses.

ChrisJ

njtommy

Just install mixing valves in every bathroom or kitchen

Gordy

ChrisJ said:

GreenGene said:

ChrisJ said
"That's fine,
But what if she fell nose down? She would've drown so should we stop everyone from taking baths?

I understand the concern, but I don't agree with it."

No, of course not, but fact is scalding is a major problem, especially with children and the elderly.

Hot Water Causes Third Degree Burns…
…in 1 second at 156º
…in 2 seconds at 149º
…in 5 seconds at 140º
…in 15 seconds at 133º.

Hot tap water accounts for 17% of all childhood scald hospitalizations.

So you're telling me you could easily hold your hand in 140F water for 5 seconds?

have you ever tried? That's what I have a beef with, people post these numbers as if 5 seconds is fast. Like I said previously, 5 seconds is an eternity when you feel that kind of pain.


Canada apparently feels different, they seem to still recommend 140F for most homes.

https://canadasafetycouncil.org/home-safety/heated-debate-about-hot-water


I'm all for mixing valves at each fixture, but don't like the idea of running the system cool.

Usual reaction is ouch that's hot as hand pulls away. However the legal system has put complete incompetence on the other foot. That being the person who allowed such a hot temperature to meander out of the faucet from the tank.

It's rampid, and never going back.

Hell I have seen a drunk driver drive through a bridge out barrage of barricades. Around several pieces of large equipment parked on the road, and off the non existent bridge into live traffic I-90 down below. Landed on top of a semi, and a car. Guess who got sued. Guess who won...........steamhead....

ratio

You can't fix stupid, but you can ...reward it?

Gordy

Reward is about the size of certain instances @ratio .

vvzz

4Johnpipe said:

We run direct lines to dishwashers in some cases. They only need 120 though. Example first fill on new tank. It runs to 150 or 155. Legionella dead after 15 minutes. Add water it's moving now. Tank comes on 7 degrees cooler than set point. Water flowing stops. Tank heats up kills any new bacteria. Keeping valve closer to source prevents bacteria from entering system.
It's also code now.

I considered running direct lines(before the mixing valve) to the dishwasher and the the washing machine. But I figured - unless they are right next to the water heater, by the time the hot water reaches the machine, it has already filled up. And then the water in the pipes will cool down by the time the cycle requires the next fill. Having recirculation pump just for those appliances also doesn't seem like a great idea.

I will just stick to my low tech way of running the closest tap for a few seconds.

Zman

@GreenGene thanks for starting this one.
Even though you are preaching to the choir to the regulars here, the message is important.
I have had multiple conversations with the local health department and they are oblivious. I offered to take samples if they would do the tests, no go.
Keep up the good work.

GreenGene

Gordy said:

Here is the thing. Legionella hits people with immune, and respiratory deficiencies. If you are healthy, as most people are then you may not get it. So to say having a tank temp at 122 with no increase in cases is not really a worth while statistic.

the truth is it's hits everyone, BUT you may die if you are compromised, case in point, The Legionaries for which it is named.

They were standing in front of their hotel watching a parade as an HVAC tech turned on a cooling tower on the roof that had been down and was full of bacteria, they got misted and never felt it just as it happened in NYC last summer.

Every one of them that was a smoker DIED, the others got the worst case of double pneumonia.

You may get what you think is a respiratory thing or cold when you really had this.

4Johnpipe

It's one of the most miss diagnosed illnesses in the world.

GreenGene

I know I had it, just at the time I didn't know much about it, I replaced some vibration switches on a cooling tower that was sitting for a bit and was green, I got double pneumonia and figured it came from there, years later when teaching and covered LD I did a little research on the history and was floored, put it in with the cooling tower curriculum about what not to do and if it's green and slimy it's needs treatment before service.

Jason_13

I did a lot of research on this a few years ago and it seems like LD was only a concern with plastic pipe, not copper. Anyone ever hear of this?

ChrisJ

Jason said:

I did a lot of research on this a few years ago and it seems like LD was only a concern with plastic pipe, not copper. Anyone ever hear of this?

That's a new one on me.

SWEI

Biofilms do grow better on plastic than on copper, but legionella is sneaky stuff.

hvacserviceseverett

I dont know much about the UV side of things. Are they effective and worth it?

AC All Day

hot_rod

SWEI said:

Biofilms do grow better on plastic than on copper, but legionella is sneaky stuff.

And bacteria can grow in hydronic systems. Flux, oil, etc can be the food source. Clean your hydronic systems with the proper treatment!

SWEI

hvacserviceseverett said:

I dont know much about the UV side of things. Are they effective and worth it?

AC All Day

There have been several studies that say yes. I've got one on the recirc line in a hotel. Quite affordable if you only have to size for the return flow.

JUGHNE

I can't imagine that ME has not chimed in on this. I believe he had an article (or several) some years ago about being personally infected at his cabin with the shower water that had been sitting dormant for a while. (If I am wrong...I apologize)

Gordy

JUGHNE said:

I can't imagine that ME has not chimed in on this. I believe he had an article (or several) some years ago about being personally infected at his cabin with the shower water that had been sitting dormant for a while. (If I am wrong...I apologize)

All true. All though I believe he had to actually facilitate the thought to the physician if it could be legionella.

Mark Eatherton

Gordy said:

JUGHNE said:

I can't imagine that ME has not chimed in on this. I believe he had an article (or several) some years ago about being personally infected at his cabin with the shower water that had been sitting dormant for a while. (If I am wrong...I apologize)

All true. All though I believe he had to actually facilitate the thought to the physician if it could be legionella.

All, I've been reading and watching what has gone on here, and have nothing to add as it pertains to the Legionella thread. Having been party (expert witness) to a young child (1 year old) who inadvertently was self scalded when her deaf mom left the room momentarily while the child was in the tub, I can tell you that there is not enough being done to protect the end users from scalding.

She survived, but had to undergo numerous painful skin grafts to her feet. She stood up and flipped the single lever handle to full on hot. Sock burns to her feet. Common sense doesn't apply to everyone, and stuff happens in a hurry when you least expect it.

I've also consulted on other scalding case issues, and none of them were self induced, all accidental, and caused by negligence on the people maintaining the systems.

FWIW, ASHARE also addressed this in standard 188 P, but didn't go into the residential sector. Trust me when I say that the people charged with maintaining the plumbing codes are very aware of these issues and are working hard to incorporate changes into the code to minimize inadvertent exposure to this deadly (Legionella) disease. I am lucky to be a survivor, and yes, I had to bring legionella to their attention. It was correctly diagnosed as bacterial pneumonia, but the source was not considered.

Be safe out there...

ME

ChrisJ

Mark Eatherton said:

Gordy said:

JUGHNE said:

I can't imagine that ME has not chimed in on this. I believe he had an article (or several) some years ago about being personally infected at his cabin with the shower water that had been sitting dormant for a while. (If I am wrong...I apologize)

All true. All though I believe he had to actually facilitate the thought to the physician if it could be legionella.

All, I've been reading and watching what has gone on here, and have nothing to add as it pertains to the Legionella thread. Having been party (expert witness) to a young child (1 year old) who inadvertently was self scalded when her deaf mom left the room momentarily while the child was in the tub, I can tell you that there is not enough being done to protect the end users from scalding.

She survived, but had to undergo numerous painful skin grafts to her feet. She stood up and flipped the single lever handle to full on hot. Sock burns to her feet. Common sense doesn't apply to everyone, and stuff happens in a hurry when you least expect it.

I've also consulted on other scalding case issues, and none of them were self induced, all accidental, and caused by negligence on the people maintaining the systems.

FWIW, ASHARE also addressed this in standard 188 P, but didn't go into the residential sector. Trust me when I say that the people charged with maintaining the plumbing codes are very aware of these issues and are working hard to incorporate changes into the code to minimize inadvertent exposure to this deadly (Legionella) disease. I am lucky to be a survivor, and yes, I had to bring legionella to their attention. It was correctly diagnosed as bacterial pneumonia, but the source was not considered.

Be safe out there...

ME

So what's the answer?
How do you prevent scalding, and prevent bacterial issues?

Or, are some things in life just not preventable?

Tinman

Keep the tank hot and use a mixing valve above it.

JUGHNE

Nursing home/hospital WH tank at 140, recir pump plumbed thru Powers mixing valve, (right at tank) delivering 110 to 115 HW with 150' HW supply line.

Are we safe???......Been this way 30 years. Of course remember these are both locations were people are either close to their maker already or get some bug just being in the hospital.

Mark Eatherton

So what's the answer?
How do you prevent scalding, and prevent bacterial issues?

Or, are some things in life just not preventable?

Chris, prevention is more than just hot water. IAPMO's technical committees are working on developing a piping methodology that disallows any stagnant legs, which will amplify the bacteria. Tough to do in occasional use home bathrooms that are some distance away from the distribution mains. Scald sanitization at present is the most effective means of eradication, unless you have parts of the system that don't "see" the sanitization efforts.

In reality, cold water distribution systems have just as much potential for creating bacterial amplification. In a study by the CDC many years ago, 90% of those people tested had tracers of the bacteria. That makes sense because its in the water and we drink water. The big problem is when you have significant bacterial count, like in a single fluid open combination CH system and DHW system and the tubing has been without movement for a long period of time (summer), and your immune system has been partially compromised (head and chest cold in my case) and you are exposed to the high concentration of bacteria in an aeresolized condition (shower head or even an faucet aerator) and the bacteria get lodged in the microphilia (hairs) of the lungs. The bacteria starts a colony and bacterial pneumonia is the outcome, a.k.a. Legionaires Disease. There is also other water born bacteria that cause other discomforts (Pontiac fever and others) under these same amplification scenarios.

Current research includes the use of a silver nickel compound that completely kills the bacteria, but silver is considered a heavy metal and is tightly controlled by the health authorities.

I believe we will eventually come up with a good disinfectant that will kill the bug, and not the people who are using the potable water... It will just take time, and in the mean time, we know that thermal (scald) sanitization os the most effective means to kill these deadly bugs.

One thing up for consideration is to do what the Germans and other European countries do, and that is to thermally scald ALL of the distribution system during the wee hours of the morning. Things that work fine in Europe will be viewed as a legal lawsuit looking for a place to happen here in the US. It will require an announcement at all points of use warning them that the DHW may be extremely hot between the hours of XX am and XX am. And it will require a bypass around a critical safety device (anti-scald protection, with some means of alarm annunciation if the hot water exceeds a programmed set point during other times of the day, should the bypass valve stick open or fail to close.

Even with that, people will still sue if they burn themselves. Tis a litiguous society in which we live. It's also the primary reason we will never see some of the innovative hydronic products featured across the pond over here. From one major German hydronic equipment manufacturer, "Too many lawyers over there."

So in short, we're working on it.

FWIW, LD has also been contracted by farmers tilling the soil, grocery store workers working around the produce areas where they spray water onto the veggies to keep them fresh, and hot tub users and buildings with significant water features (sprays and water falls where aerasolization can take place). It's not just DHW that is a problem. And then there are those dirty slimy hot humid perfect growing condition cooling towers. I've seen some that I wouldn't even approach... This is being addressed by ASHRAE maintenance standards under the flag of standard 188P.

It's here to stay for the time being. Be aware, and avoid un-necessary exposure if and when you can.

I do not believe it is a problem in oxygen tight closed loop heating systems with oxygen barriers. It requires oxygen, food, water and warmth to proliferate. Drop one of those ingredients, and life support for the bacteria ceases.

ME

BobC

There were two confirmed cases of legionella at the South Postal P&DC in Boston about 8 or 9 years ago. This is a huge building that has miles of piping, the cause was a dead-ended stub of pipe that was on the same line as a water fountain. Some of that piping is 80 years old.

I drank from that fountain from time to time and it was probably just luck that it didn't get me. I retired from there about a year after this happened and these people were still sick.

Bob

GreenGene

Thanks Mark, good info.