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Believe it or not, this system is vented.

Double D
Double D Member Posts: 408
edited October 2019 in Strictly Steam
One of the pictures shows the vent above the dry return where one of the basement radiators ties in. A Barnes and Jones vent rite 77. The complaint on this call was the pump is making a strange noise. The boiler is a Weil McLain EGH-115PI, 500,000 btu, 1250sqft. I still need to go back to measure the radiation. My guess is it's grossly oversized.

Comments

  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,510
    So what will you advise the owners?
    If you choose "dump the condensate tank and pump", then have a look around and see what sort of knuckle heading caused the tank to be installed in the first place.--NBC
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    I'm thinking first thing is to see how well matched the boiler is to the installed radiation. Next since it's fairly easy, get rid of the water leg formed on the inlet side of the tank, remove the vent rite on the dry return, and see how well the system performs.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 1,710
    I like tanks. Pumps cause problems. Without that vent customer may not need pump?
    SWEIDouble D
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,838
    If the boiler is on the same level as the tank, and there aren't any other dry returns that come in lower, that system should work fine with gravity return.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Double D
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    The boiler is on the same level as the tank and there are not any other dry returns than come in lower. I totally agree the system would work fine with gravity return. The homeowners have been used to seeing it on the system since 1998. If they question what I'm advising, I'll be sure to direct them straight to this thread. That will give them at least 4 people saying to dump the condensate tank and pump.

    I'll see what else I find as far as venting goes when I do a rad survey but for the time being, that ventrite 77 is the only vent on the system. The tank isn't doing any venting the way it's piped. Cut in on the pressuretrol was set on 7lbs, the differential was set to 1-1/2 and the pigtail was plugged solid. I do plan to put a vaporstat on the boiler.
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    I was being sarcastic when I said "believe it or not this system is vented."
    I went back today for a rad survey. As it turns out the boiler is closely matched to the installed radiation. In addition to the ventrite 77 there are Hoffman 1A's on three of the rads in the house. I discussed the idea of abandoning the boiler feed tank but the owner was not interested in doing that at this time. I still have 2 major issues that need to be addressed, one being the installation of a vaporstat. The second would be to get this system vented. I keep going back and forth with the best way. The first would be to raise the return line to the inlet height of the tank. This would get rid of the body of water preventing the system from venting properly not to mention helping to make use of those F&T's. Another choice could be use several Gorton 2's and just leave the return line alone.
    It wasn't easy trying to convince the owner to abandon the boiler feed tank. In 1998 when he purchased the home it basically came with the trusted steam serviceman that has worked on it for years. This man later retired and the present homeowner started using another well known steam heat professional. Although it makes sense to him that the system needs to be vented and operate at a lower pressure, the other professional steam contractors never mentioned it. The last one who worked on it replaced the pump motor and has cleaned and flushed the boiler in the past. It's a mystery as to who set the pressure so high and put air vents on the rads.
    This doesn't happen to me very often but it has happened in the past. Any ideas?

  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    The boiler now leaks above and below the water line. Total installed radiation is 1232sqft. It would be nice to use the Peerless 64-08 but it's only rated for 996sqft. The 64-09 is rated for 1146sqft. I would assume this would be the better choice. I still need to change the crossover traps but I have installed 2 Gorton 2's on the dry return. I still need a minimum of one more with a combined cuft. of air to be removed just shy of 3cuft between the 2 mains. Before the venting, it took 21 min. to get steam to the ends of the mains from a cold start. After the vents it took 9min. to get steam to the ends of the mains from a cold start.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,287
    Sometimes condensate pumps and boiler feed tanks are needed because the newer boilers hold less water than the old giant boilers
  • I'm pretty sure the boiler designers/engineers have taken into account the steam volume of the system in relation to the water volume of the boiler. What they can't predict is any slow returns, starving the boiler, or over-pressure forcing too much water up into the wet returns.
    Where these feed tanks are needed would be in multiple building installations, with one boiler serving all of the buildings.
    Dump the condensate pumps, where possible, and go with gravity!--NBC
    Double D
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    Since they already own the boiler feed tank, I told them I would like to run the new boiler on gravity return only. If for any reason it doesn't work I could always put it back. I do have several jobs over the years where I have shut down both condensate return pumps and boiler feed tanks. On his job, since the return line drops down below and rises back up to the inlet, the tank is totally useless for venting the system.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 10,287
    Just leave the condensate pumps and pipe in a bypass with a couple of valves in it. If you find out you need the pumps just change valve position and run gravity. It would be a good thing to have if you need to run the pumps and a pump fails in the future you can run gravity while the pump is fixed
    Double D
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    The time has come for this boiler to be replaced. There is a considerable jump in price between these two Peerless boilers. Total installed radiation is 1232sqft. It would be nice to use the Peerless 64-08 but it's only rated for 996sqft. The 64-09 is rated for 1146sqft. I would assume this would be the better choice. Any thoughts?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,518
    I would definitely go with the 64-09. That will still leave you with 22 or so % for piping and pick-up. The 64-08 will eat up all of you piping and pick-up factor and may well create some balancing issues for you.
    Double D
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    The old boiler looked much worse when the jacket came off.
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    So the 64-09 it is.
    ethicalpaul
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,974
    What boiler did you go with?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    Peerless 64-09.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 14,838
    Glad to see you got rid of the boiler-feed tank.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    He agreed to donate it to a church that needs it. So far so good, system working fine without it.
    kcopp
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 1,336
    @Double D Nice looking work there. Big improvement.
    Double D
  • dopey27177
    dopey27177 Member Posts: 748
    Beautiful installation!!!

    Comment below is for the original installation, not your work

    The copper pipe at the base of the drips is below the entry tap of the combination boiler feed and condensate pump set.

    Shown is what appears to be two float and thermostatic traps at the end of the steam mains.

    The condensate tank needs to be vented from the top, usually an extended from the overflow pipe.

    You need to separate the steam trap piping from the wet return and pipe into the top of the tank. The silver drip pipe should also be trapped or piped into the bottom of the boiler. The best way to handle that pipe is to install an F&T trap, then you can remove all the master air vents from the system.

    Jake

    Double D
  • Double D
    Double D Member Posts: 408
    Vents on the radiators have been removed. The ends of mains had crossover traps, one of which was failed closed. I installed a venting station with 3 Gorton 2 vents. The crossovers were replaced with Barnes and Jones 122A traps. The owner has been there since 1998. He said the heating was never even. 1st floor 60, 2nd floor 70, 3rd floor 80. He said all three floors are even now with the exception of one 3rd floor bedroom radiator which has a failed closed trap. I threw in a picture of the old boiler while I was at it.