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Outdoor reset and homeowners

Jason_13Jason_13 Member Posts: 297
I believe we should educate the homeowners to adjust their own ODR. We as contractors can come close with our calculations but they could improve the operation. What can they hurt. Maybe end up with not enough heat? They can fix that.I see many mod/con boilers with very short run times i mean like 1-5 minutes. They have improved even though they are way over sized by de-rating the boiler for both heat and DHW.
Thoughts???????????
Is it not our job as professionals to get our customers as much fuel savings as we can but not kill ourselves financially by babysitting a job to maximize the fuel savings.
Jean-David Beyer

Comments

  • Heat_n_CTHeat_n_CT Member Posts: 64
    Let me share some dialogue during my last "annual cleaning"...

    Tech: have you changed anything since install?

    Me: yes, I changed the ODR settings and ramp delay

    Tech: do you install boilers for a living

    Me: no, but I don't like short cycling which is what I was getting after the install - 8 days of install I had 389 cycles and 67 hours of run time.

    Tech: I can have your warranty voided because you entered the service mode.

    Me: go ahead, btw who owns this system?

    Tech: ok, I've looked at your settings and you haven't done anything drastic. I've seen some real bad things happen when people mess with the service menu.
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Currently available boiler firmware leaves something to be desired in the separation and definition of roles. IMO there should probably be at least three levels of access, and the "reset everything to defaults" button should be able to be locked out, or at least hidden behind level 3 by the installer. Let us choose which functions the first and second levels have access to, please.
    ZmanGordy
  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 664
    edited February 2016
    I've been tweaking mine my self.
    After researching I had to combine my 2 zones because one was too small at min fire with low temp water. This was before I decided on the modcon.

    I also ditched my Honeywell thermostat for a Robert shaw with adjustable differential. This has been the biggest improvement in stabilizing nusiance short heat calls.

    Some homeowners like to tinker some don't. If they are dedset on a modcon they need to know it needs to be dialed in, and it may take a few tries.

    Currently I have 220 cycles and 440 plus hours runtime. A good hundred of them were from the thermostat being too sensitive
  • GWGW Member Posts: 3,790
    Hat, I think Heat-n-CT is a homeowner, seems like he gets it. Why think that some HO's can't handle a few basic programming commands? Most manuals are easy once you finally digest what the writer was intending to write. Then again, some manuals are impossible to understand. I had some egg on my face today when i realized a boiler i have installed (dozens) maxes out at 165, yet the manual allows the user to go much higher. Always something.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
  • ChesterChester Member Posts: 83
    Cool thread!

    As a HO the way I see it is that manufacturers have no idea what your house looks like so they set up the boiler with relatively conservative factory defaults. Then, at best, the installer can only make an educated guess on where to set the ODR based on their heat loss calc and understanding the EDR and characteristics of the emitters. So either the HO has to want and know how to dial it in or the installer has to provide some followup support. Otherwise it could be sheer luck if they ever hit anything close to their AFUE. I had a good installer but there's no way they could know I could get away with a curve based on design day output of 112F. (The factory default was 160).

    The crazy thing about AFUE is that it's based on a laboratory test that has nothing to do with real-world conditions. I think it's something like 180F output with 80F return and 90% humid intake air. Pass that test by producing enough condensate (some of which comes from the humid air) and you get a fancy label that says 95% AFUE. But a modcon only starts to become more efficient (above 88% or so) with return temps around 130 (for natgas). You won't get into the 90% efficiency range until much lower return temps and most HO's won't have an optimal modcon performance unless they're willing to get educated.

  • Jean-David BeyerJean-David Beyer Member Posts: 2,665
    I am a homeowner who knew nothing about hot water heating systems other than what I figured out from my 60 year old GE oil fired one that did not have a pressure relief valve on it. If something had gone wrong (it never did) it would have pushed the pressure backwards through the pressure reducing valve into the water company's pipes (no check valves in there).

    When that was getting too old (though it was still working and not leaking), but I wanted the in-ground 1000 gallon oil tank replaced before it leaked. I was a little too late for that. I got my heating contractor to replace it and his salesman asked what efficiency I wanted, I said the highest I could get. So he installed a W-M Ultra 3 boiler that has been working very well.

    Fortunately for me, I looked up that boiler on the Internet, download the installation manual and read it from cover to cover. Very interesting. I also got John Siegenthaler's fat book on Hydronic heating systems and read that too. From that, I did a heat loss calculation and told the contractor I did not want the 105,000 btu/hour boiler, but the 80,000 model. Even that is a little too large, and 50,000 would probably have been better, but W-M did not make one.. The salesman argued that the larger unit was only slightly more expensive and that bigger was better, so I ignored him.

    The installing contractor had a pretty good designer on staff and designed the system quite well. I said I had designed it myself, out of curiousity, and asked if there was anything wrong with my design. One thing is I did not need any temperature reducing valves because the house was two zones, and the boiler could operate two zones. He thought my design was unusual, but that it would work. And it does work.

    One zone is baseboard, and the other is radiant heat in on-grade slab. And they require different temperatures, but the boiler has two reset curves, adjustable separately. The installing crew was not as good as the designer, though.

    The boiler comes with the outdoor temperature sensor, but the crew did not wish to connect it "because it does not make any difference." Well, with a severely oversize boiler, it would not, running at the lower reset limit all the time. I insisted that they hook it up and they did. The tech set everything to the factory defaults, which resulted in way too much heat in both zones. I thought they should come back to set the resets, but they would not, they said it was OK. So I did. It took quite a while. I knew the theory and from my heat loss calculations, I set the reset curves. That was better, but still pretty bad. There are too many unknowns in the construction of my house to get good results. But over a couple of years, I now have them set to supply just barely enough heat in the slab zone so that normally heats only once a day. On really cold days, it can run 18 hours straight. But is stays within 1F of the setpoint on the thermostat.

    Upstairs where the baseboards are, is another story. It is too small, so on warm days (over 50F outside), it cycled too rapidly. I cannot set the firing rat any lower than 16000 BTU/hour and that zone on warm days needs only a couple of thousand. I had to diddle that a lot to reduce the rapid cycling. I set the minimum temperature delivered to the baseboards to 120F instead of the 80F that might have been enough, I reduced the maximum firing rate to 55% instead of the default 94% so the controller did not go into bang-bang mode of operation. It now cycles only 3 or four times an hour instead of every few minutes.

    The reason it took so long to set the reset curves is because I had no good way to adjust the outdoor temperature. I had to wait about 5 years until the outdoor temperature dropped to 2F. Design temperature here is about 14F.

    Now I have a new heating contractor because the original one was not good enough. I asked the new contractor what they would have done. They would have calculated it out, and set the curves like that. I could call them at $100 per service call to come out and diddle the curves. They said that would not make sense, but they could not afford to do it for free. I do not think they should have to do it for free, and I do not think they needed the business for that anyway. So I did it. I do not blame the contractor. I think it is necessary for someone to educate the customer on how to do things like that. I see two problems with that. 1.) Who should educate the customer? Who pays for this education. I believe the salesman of the installing contractor should do it, and the manufacturer should pay the cost to the contractor. Now my salesman did not understand that, so he could not teach it. And the installing technicians had no clue about outdoor reset. 2.) I bet, but do not know, that most customers would not read the manual (it seems that some contractors do not read the manual), nor would they attend a class. They had to pay for the boiler and it should work. They even resent having to do an annual service. They buy a TV, a computer, a car. They do not read the manuals for those, why should they read the manual for anything else. I am so glad I never had to work in a business where I had to work with customers directly.

    I would have been really pi$$ed if I had to pay to get the resets set up right because I was locked out of the controller on that unit. But while I am not a heating professional, I did do a lot of design of feedback control systems in a previous life, so I had a pretty good idea what I was doing. On the W-M boiler, diddling the reset curves is pretty easy, once you get into maintenance mode (and that is extremely easy if you take the drastic step of reading the installation manual) and other than rapid cycling, wide temperature swings in the house, or wasted fuel, there is little damage to be done with incorrect reset curves.
    Tim Potter
  • ChesterChester Member Posts: 83
    It probably is too much to expect that a majority of homeowners and/or contractors will want or be able to achieve a sufficient level of expertise, which means manufacturers need to take a lot more responsibility. It's sort of false advertising to sell an appliance with an AFUE sticker on it without disclosing that it may or may achieve it's hypothetical efficiency depending on how you or your installer set it up.

    Last year Bosch came out with a new control system that's basically indoor reset instead of outdoor reset. The t-stat modulates the boiler with no programming required. Maybe that's their answer to the problem.
  • Jason_13Jason_13 Member Posts: 297
    I do not believe that every homeowner will play with the ODR settings. If they want to why not. There are many very savvy homeowners that could do it. Why not let them maximize their savings?
    Educating the homeowners about ODR someone asked Who should pay for it. They suggested the manufacturer should pay the contractor and the contractor should do the education. I totally disagree. Maye the manufacturer can do a white paper with the info. The contractor can explain if questions over the phone if they understand ODR. There is a lot of information about how to calculate and adjust the ODR curve. Most units today are pretty simple to adjust. You only have 4-5 settings.
    If the boiler does not go low enough you can't fix that from the control anyways so rule that out.
    FYI - agree or not on AFUE ratings let's at least clear it up a bit due to a comment earlier. AFUE is tested at 140f supply and 120f return and does not matter if the boiler is a mod/con or cast iron boiler. Flow rate is a 20f delta-T. The DOE has set the standard for all the test procedures and formulas.
    I know an electrician that did his own heat loss, calculated OD reset curves, installed his own mod/con boiler, had a contractor do a combustion test, all is well and a very neat job. Near zero unit working well. When you look at the average boiler run times it is operating 18 minutes on.
  • SWEISWEI Member Posts: 7,356
    Jason said:

    I do not believe that every homeowner will play with the ODR settings. If they want to why not.

    This depends entirely on the owner in question. Some owners are comfortable with and capable of taking an active role in the operation and optimization of their HVAC system. Other owners (or their caretakers, or their progeny) should never be allowed past the front door on the boiler controls. Please give me the capability as an installer to decide how much access I want the customer to have, and please take the 'reset all' and 'ez setup' off the front page.
  • GordyGordy Member Posts: 9,523
    All I did was press that button.........
    Boonnjtommy
  • ChesterChester Member Posts: 83
    Jason said:

    I
    FYI - agree or not on AFUE ratings let's at least clear it up a bit due to a comment earlier. AFUE is tested at 140f supply and 120f return and does not matter if the boiler is a mod/con or cast iron boiler. Flow rate is a 20f delta-T. The DOE has set the standard for all the test procedures and formulas.

    Thanks for correcting me. It is 140 and 120. It still seems pretty artificial though because (according to a Caleffi video I saw) they can use intake air as warm as 90F and 80% humidity.

  • Paul48Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    Imagine if you bought a new automobile, then had to spend the next month making adjustments to make it run efficiently. Therein lies the problem.
  • ced48ced48 Member Posts: 463
    Unless the contractor is willing to move in with the homeowner for a complete heating season, there is no other way to adjust the system so it runs efficiently, and fits the owner's own personal lifestyle, without their involvement.
    Hatterasguygfrbrookline
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,339
    Silly question but,
    Why can't the software automatically adjust the ODR based on how well the indoor temp is maintained? Once a setting that works is found it's left alone?


    Seems like something the program should be able to do on it's own with nothing more than an indoor temperature sensor.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    gfrbrookline
  • BrewbeerBrewbeer Member Posts: 611
    edited February 2016
    Seems like most boilers are not set up to integrate indoor temps into the control function. The Lochinvar WHN055, which has what seems to be a fairly sophisticated software control system, doesn't use indoor temps as part of its control strategy.

    I agree, instead of the boiler integrating an on/off signal from a thermostat, it would be better if the boiler performed the thermostat function (e.g. managing setbacks) and the thermostat became a temp sensor, which would tell the boiler to ramp up when indoor temp was below desired.
    Hydronics inspired homeowner with self-designed high efficiency low temperature baseboard system and professionally installed mod-con boiler with indirect DHW. My system design thread: http://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/154385
    System Photo: https://us.v-cdn.net/5021738/uploads/FileUpload/79/451e1f19a1e5b345e0951fbe1ff6ca.jpg
    njtommy
  • ChrisJChrisJ Member Posts: 11,339
    I know almost nothing about ODR for hot water, but reading what I have on here it seems like something that would be incredibility easy for software to fine tune all on it's own.

    Make a thermostat for the system that the user can interact with (change temperatures, program setbacks etc) and that communicates directly with the boiler and it's system.

    When the system can't keep up, it ramps up the temperature a little and remembers that.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Paul48Paul48 Member Posts: 4,492
    @ChrisJ

    My thinking exactly. For as good as mod/cons are, they are still "Dumb". Take the money spent writing the software that requires the ridiculous need for the contractor/homeowner to enter parameters, and use it to make the mod/con self-aware of its own functions.
  • woodshedwoodshed Member Posts: 36
    Brewbeer said:

    Seems like most boilers are not set up to integrate indoor temps into the control function. The Lochinvar WHN055, which has what seems to be a fairly sophisticated software control system, doesn't use indoor temps as part of its control strategy.


    .

    I had this discussion with some of the boiler manufacturer's at AHR last month and this idea was not enthusiastically embraced.

    As a work around, I've been using Tekmar controls and RTU's that have indoor feedback and ODR with a 0-10 signal to the boiler.

    Zman
  • Jody_SJody_S Member Posts: 9
    Part of the problem actually buried in the automobile analogy, the boiler is not the car, it is the engine. And not only that, it has a carb, no electronic flue injection with all the bells and whistles. It is then put in a rolling chassis including transmission that was designed for a different engine. It takes time. Think about how many sensors the car you are driving has.

    Part of the solution is room feedback where the water temperature is adjusted to the right temperature. If the heating curve is wrong it can adjust automatically. With this, if the infiltration changes with a change in the wind it can be adjusted automatically. I wouldn't do away with outdoor reset, by measuring the change in outdoor temperature, a change in the heat loss due to temperature change can be compensated for long before an indoor sensor sees the change in room temperature. Also if efficiency is the goal, the indoor sensor will compensate for any gains either internal or external by seeing an increase in room temperature.

    Jody S.



  • bmwpowere36m3bmwpowere36m3 Member Posts: 512
    It comes down to whether that sophisticated of a control is really needed... if you get the ODR curve close, then how much do you really gain by fine-tuning those last few degrees.

    I think it's also important to note, that even the ODR curve already has a built-in +/- 10* or so (differential). So you really only need to be close, not exact. Sometimes my thermostat is satisfied slightly under setpoint, sometimes slightly over.
  • mxfrankmxfrank Member Posts: 21
    I'm a homeowner, I have a Buderus 205 with an Ecomatic 2000 (what they called the Logomatic before it was rebranded). I also have an engineering background including a real degree. I'm not saying there aren't good folks out there, just that I've been more successful managing my system than any of the hired help I've had to date.

    Setting the reset curve on a Logomatic/Ecomatic appears to be a matter of craft or art. In fact, I've been studying the manual for seventeen years, and I assure you that it's more like typing with your elbows. You can shift the curve, you can compress the curve, but you can't change the curve. Buderus doesn't seem to believe that differential control should be given to the installer. Nor do you have granular control over the slope of the curve. And so you shiver on 45 degree days, because the boiler logic decides that a seventeen degree differential will work fine. You try to shift the curve so that the shoulder days are more bearable, but then you are overfiring somewhere else along the curve.

    Speaking more generally, the problem is that even the most modern control systems are applying grade school math to a problem in differential calculus. If we begin with the thought that for any given set of conditions, there is an ideal jacket temperature, then we're already lost. The problem is that you never have a given set of conditions. Everything you measure has a rate of change attached to it, and some things have a variable rate of change. Outdoor temperature is fluctuating, rooms have varying heat loss and recovery rates (depending on thermal transmission, insolation, and infiltration), delta T changes with water temperature and room temperature, boiler recovery rate changes with hydronic demand. What's needed is a computerized system that takes dozens of readings...room temperatures, outside air temperatures, humidity, wind speed, solar intensity, jacket temperature, flow rates, all of that. And solves the equation set. Instead, we're pushing on the curve with our elbows.
    Boon
  • hot_rodhot_rod Member Posts: 14,075
    I think a small % of system owners could learn and understand control adjustments and tune their own systems. Ever try to set up the trip and entertainment computers in some of the new vehicles!


    tekmar has been preaching indoor and outdoor feedback forever, it is a good logic when properly applied. For large load swing buildings and high mass slabs it s critical.

    Another other option is to use one of the aps, like Lochinvar ConXus so the installer could monitor and adjust settings without making trips back to correct or tweak settings.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
  • Leon82Leon82 Member Posts: 664
    edited February 2016
    I looked at that because it interested me. But at 625,more than I wanted to pay
    rick in Alaska
  • Paul PolletsPaul Pollets Member Posts: 3,330
    edited February 2016
    One of the reasons I'm particular to Viessmann is their advanced, yet simple controls. Each of 3 possible heating circuits have their own heating curve and can be couple to a Viessmann remote thermostat with a built-in sensor. When the sensor is enabled, within the thermostat, there's feedback between the room, the outdoor sensor, the sensor in the low loss header, the sensor on the pump outlet at the mixing valve and the boiler continuously. If the heating curve is properly selected, (presuming the heat emitters have been designed and installed correctly) maintaining a 1 degree setpoint accuracy is easy. I can show the homeowner how to adjust the curve for maximum comfort. If it wasn't user friendly, not easy at all and the source of more than a few callbacks.
  • GWGW Member Posts: 3,790
    The Buderus 2107 and the BFU room sensor has been on the market for a bazillion years, extremely simple, and an 18 degree bandwidth over/under the outdoor reset numbers. I'm unsure why the more modern Buderus Bosch products don't utilize the same easy programming. I have an oil system here at our shop.

    When I run nat gas, I have a Viesmann Vitodens 200 A series, yet have gone old school and play with sun/moon/curve/shift to nail the temps. I have a spreadhseet to keep track as i nail the numbers

    note- i was using my geothermal system for years to heat our office space, now I'm relying more on the boilers.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
    AJinCT
  • gennadygennady Member Posts: 802
    edited February 2016
    We offer 24/7 FaceTime or texting help to homeowners with our boiler installation to fine tune ODR settings. No more multiple trips back and forth. Saves time and makes client happy.
    Gennady Tsakh



    Absolute Mechanical Co. Inc.

    www.AbsoluteMechanicalCoInc.com
    jonny88CMadatMeChesterJohnNY
  • CMadatMeCMadatMe Member Posts: 3,066
    I pretty much read every post and not one has mentioned what is the most important. What is the expectation the customer expects out of their system? What comfort level (Setpoint) temp do they expect? Do they currently set back their stats and to what temp and duration.

    If you're installing modulating condensing or any outdoor reset control and don't have a minimum of 3 after installation visits in your price, then fool on you. There isn't one person in this thread or any where else that can set it and forget it and that's the conversation that should be had with the homeowner prior to installation.

    Yes contractors have the obligation to educate their customer on the muti thousands of dollars unit/system they just paid for. I truly think most don't because they don't even know how to. Most decided themselves what it good for the customer without even having that conversation of expectation.

    What I've found over the past week with the hundreds of phone calls I took for this exact issue of not making set point when it dropped below 10 and into the negatives, there are a lot of great wrench turners out their but they have no clue as to pri/sec piping, over pumping, outdoor reset, how a condensing boiler actually works and can't explain it to their customer. They can BS it though..
    "The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
    ChesterSWEIwyo
  • Steve MinnichSteve Minnich Member Posts: 2,617
    One of my customers is, literally, a rocket scientist. I let him adjust his ODR all he wants.
    Author - Hard Knocks: My Life Inside Boiler Rooms
    PHC News Columnist
    Minnich Hydronic Consulting & Design, LLC
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/minnich-hydronic-consulting-and-design
    margsuarezSWEICMadatMe
  • GWGW Member Posts: 3,790
    Many people 'don't want to know'. A minority of home owners wish to deal with the computer logic of their new boiler system.

    How many of us change the oil in our car? I'm guessing not many- there are people in the world that do that.

    How many people here follow their IRA/retirement accounts every day? I'm guessing not many; there are people out there that do this stuff for a living.

    Everyone is different, and all of the contractors have their own unique method of communication, some above average and some below average. I'm not even addressing the knowledge of the contractor.
    Gary Wilson
    Wilson Services, Inc
    Northampton, MA
    www.wilsonph.com
    [email protected]
  • sunlight33sunlight33 Member Posts: 188
    As a homeowner I like to be self-educated on something that I spent over 10 grand on, at the end I've done enough tweaking myself that I accidentally memorized half of coding 2 of the Vitoden boiler.
    CMadatMeCanucker
  • Big Ed_4Big Ed_4 Member Posts: 1,486
    edited November 20
    If it works with the settings on the coldest day of the year with all the AC defusers closed your locked in ... Seems like 167* works best . If I do get a call , normally the defusers are open , and mention to close them because I do not want to go out...
    I have enough experience to know , that I dont know it all
  • Jamie HallJamie Hall Member Posts: 13,852
    @mxfrank makes some very good points. There is no particular reason -- other than money >:) -- why a heating system control system could not be programmed to adjust parameters on the fly to manage present conditions. But perhaps we should also look at the automotive analogy as well to get an idea of the magnitude of the problem -- and some insight as to why applying similar ideas to heating is even more complex.

    I haven't counted them on all cars, but my family has two fairly new vehicles. Both of them have four interconnected computers which do nothing but handle inputs -- from literally dozens of sensors -- and control the engine and transmission from there. These are not trivial little computers -- they each have the power that a full size personal computer has. The results -- when everything is working -- are astonishingly good. At a cost.

    But the analogy fails: the computers and their programs are specific to a particular vehicle build. Further, the machine which they are controlling has very fast response to changes, and when it comes down to it, has only one input (driver power demand) to cope with. But heating systems? Not so much. first, every individual heating system is different in terms of the overall system. Second, the response time of a heating system and the associated structure is -- by automotive standards -- extremely slow (one of the hardest things to cope with in control theory). And third, perhaps worst, is that while there is one control input -- the user's desire for a given temperature -- the system as a whole has to cope with widely varying external factors, of which there are several, and the impact of which on a given structure can vary from minor to very important.

    Because of the continually varying external factors and the slow response time, it becomes necessary for the computer system to not only learn how the system responds -- which could take weeks -- but be able to predict the demand at some future time.

    It's that very last point which makes the project a nightmare.

    But I surely do agree with the various comments above on the difficulty of managing the software on these things. It should not be that difficult, nor that obscure.
    Br. Jamie, osb

    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England.

    Hoffman Equipped System (all original except boiler), Weil-Mclain 580, 2.75 gph Carlin, Vapourstat 0.5 -- 6.0 ounces per square inch
  • FDNYRETIREDFDNYRETIRED Member Posts: 14
    edited November 20
    So depending like you say on the customer. If they are like me, and it seems people that come to sites like this. I would spend money for a class from the manufacture to learn what to do. After all if the person is able to relate to all the stuff, and the basic math to understand what's going on. Let them take a couple of seminars with hands on teaching. Then give a couple of tests and make it like a certification program for what we need to know has homeowners.
    I have taught Auto and Diesel mechanics to kids and adults. I am a Automotive Design engineer from my early life, besides being a journeyman ASE mechanic at one time. I had a complete machine shop before Sandy wiped me out. Sit me down for a week or two of theory and hands on learning. I think I would be able to deal with it. I am sure a lot of people interested smarter or with less experience then me, can figure out what is needed for their own system. It's not like we are going out there to learn every product built.
    After all how do you professionals learn about a new system. Plus from what I have seen a lot of professionals who are really good at plumbing. Have no idea about new technology or even want to deal with it. Like someone said they can BS their way selling and putting in a system. But when it comes to doing the important little things. They do not give a crap. They are old school and don't believe in the technology.
    I started designing cars or should I say hub caps and air filters for Ford in Flint. Then moved to GM cause I thought I get a better chance to do what I really thought I was destined to do. Work with clay and sit in a wind tunnel control room designing exotic new cars. I learned to use a slide ruler and what took over a calculator. Then a room full of machines you punched little holes into cards to figure out computations. We come along way baby from where I started. Yet even almost 60yrs later. I try to keep up with technology.
    Anyway I agree no one can tell me that technology today is not good enough to figure out the basics of a reset curve. After all cars have body, engine , trans computers and sensors we never dreamed of. They have software we plug into the OBD II port and tweak all sorts of ratios and curves. Let alone able to change ROMS in ECM's. Who ever thought that a service station would have a dyno in the early days, that had to be tied into State inspections. Today you step on the gas it reads the air temp, TPS position, MAF ,O2 sensors to exhaust and Body control computer data. I ain't even talking about Turbo or Supercharged engines. The car goes up hills, down hills around turns brakes and senses speed changes. They drive themselves sort of.
    The problem is the companies know what needs to be done, but if they do it. Guess what they lose money for the guy who is called out by a customer. Who does care about getting the best out of their unit. Think about the tree hugger who cares about the environment, and global warming. No way you can tell me they do not have the technology. I will even bet, like I did with all those egg heads and pocket protector drones I worked with. That a computer will be taking over their job. Sooner or later the federal govt is going to mandate for emission of green house and carbon foot prints. That boiler and HAVAC companies build these units to do all of the stuff we are dealing with right now. Look what they did to us just with refrigerants and what you need to have a license to do.
    Never forget 09-11-01 FDNY/EMS/NYPD/PAPD/PENTAGON and those still dying.
  • kenjohnsonkenjohnson Member Posts: 62
    The homeowners (like me) who frequent this site are definitely in the 0.1% of people who care about the control system on their heating system. Most just want to turn a thermostat and get heat. They don't have any idea if it is set up to be less efficient than it should be, and have zero interest in learning about the topic - I'd go as far as saying that they have zero interest in even knowing what the control system does besides turning the heat on.

    Kudos to installers who might make one or two follow-up visits to make sure the system isn't short cycling or doing something really dumb. It would probably be a big improvement if the installer could just download a file of boiler operational information to understand if the boiler is running too often or too hot.

    Better yet would be a way the boiler/controller could just learn over time and adjust it's own settings - it's not a stretch to imagine my Tekmar 260 controller monitoring outdoor temperature and building temperature and boiler on/off and water temperature over time and just figuring out what the right ODR curve is after a year of operation. It already has all the basic information it needs already, it just doesn't do anything with it.
  • gfrbrooklinegfrbrookline Member Posts: 633
    edited November 23
    After reading all of this I have to say I love my Honeywell Vision Pro 8000. I have four internal remote sensors and my building is balanced within a degree. My neighbor has a much more expensive heat timer and has experienced no heat on the top floors and over heating on the lower levels. It's not a venting issue since she has big mouths in the basement and ventrites on the rads. The contractor has been trying to dial it in but like others have said unless you live in the building and can make real time adjustments you will never get it right. I am glad I don't have to deal with her tenants complaining.

    These ODR units seem over thought, complicated and under programmed.

    Does anyone have any experience with ecosteam?
  • mikeg2015mikeg2015 Member Posts: 1,179
    No. Because if the temp is set too low you can have short cycling if you have small single zones, unless you use a wide differential, which then defeats the point.

    We install Naviens, which have a "boost" setting. I put it on a 40 or 60 minute delay and it adds 8F to the setpoint if a call remains.

    In the end, most installs are radiant, and therefore with all that mass it has passive ODR anyway as the slab temp and therefore return temp will be proportional to heat loss of the space and outdoor temp. ODR just reduces cycling in mild weather. But again, you have to be sure it wont short cycle either.

    Honestly I'd be afraid most of our customers would "get in the weeds" or accidentally change the wrong parameter.

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