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Steam vs. Hot Water

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HeatingHelp
HeatingHelp Administrator Posts: 650
edited January 2016 in THE MAIN WALL

imageSteam vs. Hot Water

Steam vs.Hot Water

Read the full story here


Comments

  • Buckmaster
    Buckmaster Member Posts: 3
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    Dan, are Isolation Vibration Pads required on Commercial Cast Iron Boilers?

  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    I don't know for sure. I'll ask Ray Wohlfarth, the best there is at commercial boilers, to comment.
    Retired and loving it.
  • RayWohlfarth
    RayWohlfarth Member Posts: 1,515
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    I have never seen isolation vibration pads on a cast iron boiler. I would be concerned the radiant heat from the boiler may melt the pads. The boilers do not necessarily vibrate unless there is a problem. I have seen vibration isolators on the pump discharge. This reduces the system noise being transmitted to the building. Good luck and stay safe.
    Ray Wohlfarth
    Boiler Lessons
  • Voyager
    Voyager Member Posts: 395
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    Very nice article as usual. I agree that the best heating professional is one who knows all technologies reasonably well and isn’t a one size fits all technician. Every system type has pros and cons and is suited to a given application better than the others. Let the application select the system, not the installer.
  • JeffDaniels
    JeffDaniels Member Posts: 1
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    A great story; Dan's point of inquiring / learning about older vapor & vacuum systems is crucial, in fact steam vacuum systems are still being installed.
    However, 1 little change on an older system could put it the fritz, or on the flip side bring it back to 100% with the right fix.
    Hat's off Dan.
    J.D.
    Voyager
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
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    Here in Montreal, we have an 8 story one pipe gravity system. It is the Northern Electric plant that covers as one building the equivalent of 4 city blocks. It had a large boiler room with some 6 large boilers. The supply went to the ceiling of the 8th floor. It started on the North side and did the outer circumference of the building finishing near the boiler room at the Northeast corner. A pipe was tapped off this "header" to feed radiators on every floor. The returns were piped just below main floor level and to the boiler room which was just below street level. No pumps were needed. The down pipes had an inverted TY to feed the top of the radiator and TY for the bottom of the radiator. They were cast and had a partial diverter similar to a monflow tee.
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,889
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    Henry said:

    The down pipes had an inverted TY to feed the top of the radiator and TY for the bottom of the radiator. They were cast and had a partial diverter similar to a monflow tee.

    You mean "O-S" fittings?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Henry
  • MarkMurf
    MarkMurf Member Posts: 35
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    Great article Dan . The old man , no brag just fact , one of the best heating men ever . Period . A Delco Heat dealer before the anti-monopoly legislation of the 60's forced GM to divest out of the business along with the large oil companies,"You're smart kid . You can be a doctor or a lawyer . But learn what I teach you and you'll always have work." The 4' aluminum pipe wrench as opposed to the iron one that 13 year old 'smart kid' used to dread makes the work a tad more tolerable these days . One wonders about the future of the trade . It seems as time goes on fewer young guys show interest and fewer "experienced" techs can fix a one horse race or trouble-shoot their way out of a wet brown paper bag ! "Pay attention son . If no one knows anything . No one knows anything." No to get political , but our trade , as much as any I feel has always been the victim of corporate trickle down mentality. Show me a simpler , more dependable , longer lived , comfortable , efficient system than an open , millivolt controlled , convection flow , gas fired one ? And you'd have to show me a Boynton or a Thatcher cast iron wood burning stove up in a 'cold water flat' in Jersey City . Like the ones my grandfather and his boys used run 80lb sacks of coal and blocks of ice up to in 1917 . 'C.J.MURPHY COAL AND ICE' , BAYONNE , N.J.
    ethicalpaul
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,428
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    "To me, a true heating professional is someone who can design and troubleshoot any heating system, regardless of its age. " This is so so true Dan -- thank you! And may I extend it? The mark of a true engineer is that he or she will approach a given problem with an open mind and a willingness to learn, and solve the problem in the best way he or she can find -- whether it fits a prescribed agenda or not.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Solid_Fuel_Manethicalpaul
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
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    Yes it was O-S fittings

    Here is a picture of the building. I was asked to put thermostatic valves on several floors. We moved the rad to the right 8 inches and installed a horizontal Danfoss. It took several hours for 3 men to do each rad. Luckily, I had a supplier in town that had a very good supply of L-R nipples.
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,544
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    I'm glad you enjoyed the story, guys. Thanks!
    Retired and loving it.
  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,285
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    Steamhead said:

    Henry said:

    The down pipes had an inverted TY to feed the top of the radiator and TY for the bottom of the radiator. They were cast and had a partial diverter similar to a monflow tee.

    Seen this in Toronto long time ago. Doubt that the fittings had diverters. The upper fittings were oriented opposite to the lower so that condensate didn't dribble into lower radiators. I also believe that the radiators lacked vents. Idea was that air will escape down like in two pipe systems? Guys who sold vents,traps,and pumps bad mouthed the guy who designed and installed those systems.

    Overhead distribution works better for both steam and heating hot water. And even without it I believe one pipe can work better with separate supply to and return from radiators?



  • jumper
    jumper Member Posts: 2,285
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    Henry said:

    Here in Montreal, we have an 8 story one pipe gravity system. It is the Northern Electric plant that covers as one building the equivalent of 4 city blocks. It had a large boiler room with some 6 large boilers.

    When was this built?

  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
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    It was built in several phases from 913 to 1948. all the phases had the one pipe gravity system. Here is the major construction:
    memorablemontreal.com/print/en/batiments_menu.php?quartier=14&batiment=259&menu=histoire