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Did the Deadmen screw this one up?

Came across a strange one today while on a job to quote a replacement boiler.
Peerless 211-7 connected to a 7886 sq.ft. load able to raise pressure to 1psi. 2 stage gas valve, vaporstat set to cut-out at 16oz. Watched the gauge go from 8-16oz. So you won't have to look, a 211-7 is rated for 3150 sq.ft.
I first thought that half the radiators were off. Nope.. all hot all the way across. Measured and checked all radiators in all units.
To match the load I have to quote at least a 211-15. Owner is complaining I'm trying to stick him with with an expensive boiler he doesn't need since the -7 is doing the job right now.
Mains are well vented and insulated, with hoffman #40s on all radiators.
From my experience, the EDR total I'm coming up with seems extraordinarily high for the size apartments in this building. 14 units, each a 4 room, 1 bedroom apartment. Radiators total between 600-700sq.ft. per unit. I typically see 150-180 sq.ft. for a similar size unit. 1920s construction, new thermopane windows, 12" masonry walls, no insulation, wood lathe plaster.
What gives? Any ideas? Did the Deadmen add too much radiation here?
Peerless 211-7 connected to a 7886 sq.ft. load able to raise pressure to 1psi. 2 stage gas valve, vaporstat set to cut-out at 16oz. Watched the gauge go from 8-16oz. So you won't have to look, a 211-7 is rated for 3150 sq.ft.
I first thought that half the radiators were off. Nope.. all hot all the way across. Measured and checked all radiators in all units.
To match the load I have to quote at least a 211-15. Owner is complaining I'm trying to stick him with with an expensive boiler he doesn't need since the -7 is doing the job right now.
Mains are well vented and insulated, with hoffman #40s on all radiators.
From my experience, the EDR total I'm coming up with seems extraordinarily high for the size apartments in this building. 14 units, each a 4 room, 1 bedroom apartment. Radiators total between 600-700sq.ft. per unit. I typically see 150-180 sq.ft. for a similar size unit. 1920s construction, new thermopane windows, 12" masonry walls, no insulation, wood lathe plaster.
What gives? Any ideas? Did the Deadmen add too much radiation here?
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Comments
Are there a hundred layers of paint on all of the radiators?
Even with zero pickup factor that boiler should only be able to drive what, 4200sqft of radiation? Are you sure all of the radiators heat 100% even the lower half on the vent side?
The radiator I'm sitting next to in my living room is 90 EDR (hot water). I can't imagine having the equivalent of 7 of those in a four-room apartment. Especially when they wouldn't be running 110* water, but 200* steam. Just the space alone...700 sq ft @ 240 btu is 168,000 btu/hr, right?
Are these regular cast iron radiators? I might be picturing this way wrong...maybe the apartments are really big compared to what I see in my head.
You've definitely piqued my interest!
Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
Radiators are huge... these are 4 and 5 column (yes column, not tube, not small tube, not large tube... column) radiators. These are ridiculously deep radiators. I've been in over 200 apartment buildings in Chicago and usually run across 2 and sometimes 3 column rads, but this is a first for me. living room has 2 radiators 15 section each, 5 column, 38"(150+150). dining room has a 14 section 5 column 38"(140). BR has 1 rad 15 section 5 column (150), bath has a 6 section 5 column 38" (60) and kitchen has a 5 column 26" 7 section (49). That comes to 699 sq. ft for me.
System appears to be original 1 pipe steam except for the current boiler.
@ChrisJ actually, not a lot of any paint on the radiators. They are all however covered with radiator covers. And having seen the other thread about radiator covers, looks like these would deduct 10%.
As I was measuring radiators and figured I'd be running into this situation, I would touch each radiator and all except for 2 in the entire building were extremely hot all the way across. I didn't have my IR camera with me, but I would have loved to have taken some IR pics of these beasts.
@Fred current temps in Chicago today were in the 20s and boiler was 1 hour on, 90 off. No valves that I could see on the mains. If the owner calls me back there I'm going to do a complete survey of the mains. There does not appear to be any controls to operate valves on the mains.
I'm kind of stumped...
Oh.. and I asked the owner if the tenants used the double hung temp control method, he said not that he's noticed.
"Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
One : Replace the boiler with the same model and size.
Two : keep a close eye out for Rod Serling introducing you to a camera. This is a very bad sign and I'm not sure what to do at this point.
On this episode an innocent contractor comes in to replace a boiler. Why do they need so much heat? What he doesn't know is they are all deadmen......
EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
Why Bob Ripley?
Could the low fire be operating most of the time as if a low coal fire would be operating pretty continuously?
It's not just heating the building, it's producing pressure while doing it.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
EDR ratings are all at 72F with 215F steam I believe. If your room is above this, your EDR is lower. If your pressure is lower, your EDR is lower.
A 50 sqft EDR radiator isn't 50 sqft EDR in a 90F room with 1 PSI steam.
For all you know it was 70F out when he did the test.
Cue Rod Serling again.
"Reducing our country's energy consumption, one system at a time"
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Baltimore, MD (USA) and consulting anywhere.
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/all-steamed-up-inc
To answer some questions:
@JUGHNE I don't recall seeing any type of setback system. A lot of boilers in Chicago that I've seen have either a R&D Control or a n old HeatTimer, with a few Tekmars every so often. This didn't have anything like that. What I did see was a simple paragon timer with all the trippers on it.
@Charlie from wmass all rads had hoffman 40. Mains seemed well vented. From what I remember had several gorton #2s on each of 3 returns. pressure gauge was a 0-5?. Showed 0 when boiler was off. Seen them fail stuck at a number. But I'm assuming that since it goes 0 to 1 it's relatively functional?
@Hatterasguy I didn't check every single column. As we went around counting rads, i'd brush my hand across the top from one end to the other. Top of all sections were hot with the exception of a couple apartments.
@ChrisJ temperature was ok. Was 20ish? outside. I kept my jacket on inside. Wasn't over 75 inside, that's for sure.
@Fred it's definitely a -7. Jacket bottom is all rusted to hell. Didn't have to remove a single panel to count the sections
@Steamhead Definitely column. I see tube rads all the time. I often see 2 and sometimes 3 column rads. This is my first close encounter with a 5 column rad. They were so wide, it really stuck out in my mind. Sections connected only at the bottom, tops had cast-in lugs locking them together with bolts running across the top and bottom. I would bet the 5 column rads were about 12-14" wide.
Couldn't sleep this morning after I got up at 4am and my mind was thinking.. has anyone seen any deadmen type of steam zoning system on mains that operates without electricity? Something that would work one side of the building, then switch to the other half? I'd think anything like this would be visible in the boiler room tho
EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Boiler Control
Boiler pictures updated 2/21/15
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10202744301871904.1073741828.1330391881&type=1&l=c34ad6ee78
You must have some reference that has the 5 columns that are 38" tall. Is that the E.D.R. book? I don't have that one.
@Fred divided basements with brick firewalls. Went into the old coal room and the attached boiler room. Went into one other basement to look over gas meter and piping.
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
cell # 413-841-6726
https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
In this case, it appears all the rads are heating all the way across. That is a real mistery, at this point.
So a hopefully positive update. After talking to the owner for over 30 minutes, he has agreed to allow me to view all basements and see a couple of apartments to take pics of the rads to post. We are supposed to meet on Friday. Oh... missed this before... @KC_Jones this guy is like 80 years old... kind of ornery and has no use for the internet.