one pipe steam or two pipe hot water

JUGHNE

I believe he has eliminated several radiators and some piping.
This will require less water out in the system.
However, this may contribute to the possibly already over sized boiler issues.

Joe_Dunham

Its more about holding enough water for the level to fluctuate without the auto feeder coming on and prematurely feeding before condensate returns causing an over filled boiler. Weil McLein EG's are notorious for that and thats what cgutha has there. Engineers in the 80s made a big boo boo by not adding BFU,'s in Hi-rise buildings at boiler replacement. A duplex BFU has a stand by pump in case the first one craps out. Just flip a switch. The fact that there's already a pump there may make it the easiest solution (it must have been put there in attempt to solve a problem). Plus the use of a BFU may make it possible to abandon the buried return which is probably all blocked up by now. Im just saying it may be the easiest way, no raising the boiler, bye bye buried pipe. Of course without seeing the piping I can be way off but there's a reason the old owner hated steam. He never got it right.

Steamhead

We've found more often than not, that a system with sufficient "A" or "B" dimension that does not have zone valves or other additions will generally run fine without a boiler-feed pump.

I actually visited that hotel before @cgutha bought it. My first recommendation was to lose the pump, then add proper main vents.

Jamie Hall

Just for the sake of giggles, some numbers (and, no surprise, I completely agree with @Steamhead -- I'd be an idiot if I didn't).

Let us suppose that we have a moderately typical boiler. In fact, a Weil-McLain like Cedric (I'll pick on him, since we are acquainted with each other). Now Cedric fires at about 385,000 BTUh, or around 6,500 BTU per minute. That means that he is evaporating about 6.5 pounds of water per minute at full song. A bit less than a gallon (well, about 3 quarts to be more exact). Let's further assume that it takes 5 minutes for any condensate at all to return (that's an insult -- it takes less than two -- but let's use that number). That means that before any condensate returns about 3 and a half gallons of water will have evaporated. Now 3 and a half gallons of water -- by actual measurement -- will drop the water level by about an inch, all else being equal.

Which is not a problem -- or shouldn't be.

Bottom line: if the condensate return is not unreasonably impeded -- by gunked up lines, zone valves, very long flat dry returns, or some other problem -- and if the pressure is low enough that water doesn't find it's way into some big pipes -- and if the boiler is fired at a reasonable rate related to it's size -- there should be no need for a boiler feed pump, never mind a condensate pump.

Not to say that there will never be situations where a boiler feed pump isn't required. There are. But they are by no means common.

Joe_Dunham

lot of ifs. BFUs are a staple in larger boiler rooms.

cgutha

Thanks guys. Yes the smaller part of the main requires resloping so the parallel flow is maintained. The new end of the main is very close to the boiler. I was hoping to use the original risers, but having widened the walls to insulate, my pipes are now too close or inside the wall.
I should have known that putting this aside until now would only lead to trouble. The building is so integrated that trying to do one quarter of the floor now and the rest later, is difficult. All the plumbing, electrical and heating must be completed as a single unit.
Thanks for the chart Jamie and Gary, I will also download it to my computer.
Yes, I plan to vet the risers as well as the main. Somewhere in my head the number of seven seconds runs around for venting to the end of each main and riser. I am not certain where I got that number from, but that is in my head.
I still have the pump and return tank. Although the pump has yet to be cleaned.
This will be a dry return, dropping anything below grade is a heat loss. I will try to return the condensate as close to 212 as possible.
I assume that a Duplex BFU is a duel fire burner. I would like that very much as we spend more time between thirty and zero degrees than we do at -30.
Thanks all, I will have 14 risers when repiped. I do not remember the total EDU. (Even though I recalculated everything last week) . I will be back with an update shortly.
thanks

cgutha

Everything is integrated. Mess with this over here and you have a mess over there. The Whole house heating starts with the insulation and windows.
I have changed the heat load. Instead of the estimated R3 of a one foot thick brick building, I now have an estimated R21. (more or less depending on how steady my hand was when I added the foam).
Yes, I removed walls so instead of the original 34 small rooms, I now have (the potential when I complete the remodel) ten or eleven sleeping rooms. (Ten is the legal limit without a sprinkler system).
I solved the radiator sizing problem by removing radiators. Instead of the original 20 risers, I will now have 14 with a total of only 35 radiators. These are still oversize, but they are what they are.
I sure hope I remember how to do the heat load calculations correctly. If I did everything right, I will have a heat load of 174k btuh based on the EDR of the radiators (neglecting paint) at the design temp of -30, I am still over radiated but I am using what I have.
Attention to detail is the key. I read that in a book somewhere. In fact, as I recall, it is on several pages of Dan's book.
Well, here it goes: paper is cheap, now for the proof.

cgutha

one more question. i did not find this in Dan's book, When I have two radiators, back to back (different sides of the wall, and the riser continues up, do I use two tees or a cross?
(I seem to remember seeing a lot of dead heads here)

Steamhead

cgutha said:

one more question. i did not find this in Dan's book, When I have two radiators, back to back (different sides of the wall, and the riser continues up, do I use two tees or a cross?
(I seem to remember seeing a lot of dead heads here)

Either will work. But the piping will be a bit neater if you can find a cross.

EBEBRATT-Ed

Tall buildings return condensate quicker than horizontal spread out buildings

cgutha

This is the part where the ignorant one (me), having read a book or two, designs a one pipe steam system:
Because the walls are four inches thicker than original, I need to move the pipes.
Because I insulated the walls, I have a lower heat load. I have moved and removed radiators accordingly. (on paper)
The lower heat load allows me to use the existing 3" main half way around the perimeter of the building, then downsize to the existing 2" main the remaining distance until I return to the (new) boiler room.
Note: The original had two mains, the 3" fed the east, and the 2" fed the west, met half way on the other side of the house, and returned wet traveling under the floor (65 degrees). With the smaller heat load, I will re-slope the 2" main making one continuous loop. This is all dry return ending very near the boiler. Hopefully, the return will be at or near 212 degrees.

Now, in sizing the ventilation:
I will try to remove the air in the main in 26 seconds (8-Gorton #2)
I will try to remove the air in the risers in about 30 to 40 seconds.
The plan is to allow two to three minutes for removing the air from the radiators.
That is the plan. What do you think?

jumper

Steamhead said:

We've found more often than not, that a system with sufficient "A" or "B" dimension that does not have zone valves or other additions will generally run fine without a boiler-feed pump.

I actually visited that hotel before @cgutha bought it. My first recommendation was to lose the pump, then add proper main vents.

Pumps are for incorrectly built systems. Opportunity comes along when a big boiler is replaced with little ones. A problem from a lowered water level can be addressed and no pump is a significant economy.

cgutha

I am removing the pump. (have removed)
I believe that It was added when the boiler was replaced.
i do not know why anyone would send condensate return underground. this would act like a huge heat sink adding to inefficiency.
My objective is to increase the efficiency. Dan mentioned in his book that we are transferring energy using the latent heat of steam. dropping the return temperature to below 212 F when it is not necessary, is a waste.
Why use a pump, when one pipe lends itself so well to gravity flow?
Yes, My objective is to rebuild the system, restoring the forgotten technology of old.

Jamie Hall

Don't get too hung up about the "waste" energy in the condensate return. Yes, there is some. Even if it were to cool to 100 on its way back, that's at most 10 percent of the energy in the steam -- and if the rest of the system is working properly, it will be less -- probably much less -- and be being released into the heated space anyway, where it isn't lost.

neilc

in all this I'ld be more concerned about wet returns under the slab, and whether they are or will be leaking

JUGHNE

Did you use an eccentric reducing coupling for your transition from 3" to 2" steam main?

You could consider Barns & Jones Big Mouth air vents instead of the Gorton 2's. Twice the venting for about the same money.
But no float to stop water spitting, so placing them as high as possible is suggested.

cgutha

the eccentric 3" to 2" couple is essential.
i just competed recalculating using a tape measure and more accurate numbers. I also included the effect of venting the risers this time. The main will be vented in in 2.5 minutes using one Gorton #2. The risers will vent within seven minutes. It looks like the Ventrite #1 gives me the most flexibility for venting the rads ranging from three columns to fourteen columns. (4 EDR per column) I will try to adjust each radiator to vent in fifteen minutes including the main and riser time

cgutha

The wet returns are gone. this will be 100% dry return. The loop runs clockwise around the house ending near the boiler so the return is very short.

cgutha

So, I am finally working on my Wiel-Mclain EGH-95 boiler (MFG-1991) I understand the life expectancy of a cast iron boiler is 20 years, 30 if it is well cared for. My question is: What determines the end of life for a boiler?

Jamie Hall

cgutha said:

So, I am finally working on my Wiel-Mclain EGH-95 boiler (MFG-1991) I understand the life expectancy of a cast iron boiler is 20 years, 30 if it is well cared for. My question is: What determines the end of life for a boiler?

Practically speaking? When it leaks.

JUGHNE

Did you flood the boiler up to the header for hours? Usually confirms any leaks above the water line. You could pop the top open while doing that looking for dampness.

IIRC, your boiler sat idle for some time?
Rust on the gas train or burners may be an issue.

How have you been heating the place since buying it?

cgutha

I have been heating with temp heat in a few rooms.
the header is not on the boiler at this time. I need to plug the holes and test.
I finally got the burners out. one had a hole in it from the rust. several bolts had to be ground off as the rust would not allow the nuts to spin free. i have the jacket off now so I and see all the dirts and junk inside. In the words of Hans solo: I hve a cery bad veeling about this...
The burner tray is rested in the back right corner. that's when I took a break and started looking up replacement parts. I will work on it agin today.
It apears that IF the sections do not have a crack in them, they can be reseled.
The back of the unit looks more rusted than the front.
I will try to get pictures,

JUGHNE

I believe any CI boiler install book has the procedure for hydro testing the block.
Maybe 30 PSI water pressure is the max. Name plate may state max PSI.

cgutha

yes, I am still plugging the inlets and outlets in preparation of a pressure test.
I vacuumed the sections, there is a large crack on the end (B) section.
Even if I replace the "B" section and the entire burner unit it is still cost effective to replace these and rebuild.
I continue my inspection.
I filled the boiler with water, but one of the unions to the LWCO leaks. so that needs replaced before completing a static test. I also need to plug the remaining pipes and get a 60 psi gauge before performing a pressure test.

Does anyone know if the half inch stay rods are of special material? these are not in stock where I checked.

ceg

EBEBRATT-Ed

You can use regular threaded rod. Usually the testis 1.5 x max working pressure so most steam boilers are rated for water at 30 psi or steam at 15 psi so 30 x 1.5-45psi. That's what we used to test them at

cgutha

Thanks everyone: UPDATE: I ground the crack and filled it with JB Weld then filled the boiler with water. There is another leak from the damaged section, but all the other sections and joints stayed dry. I am in the process now of moving the boiler to the new location. Then I will remove the damaged section. once removed, I will be able to see if there is any flaking of the other sections. If there is flaking, the cast is rotted, and I toss the boiler. However, I believe the crack is from thermoshock and the rest is good.
ceg

cgutha

I was surprised at how easily the damaged section came off.
Now for the cleaning.
The good news is that the cast is not flakey. This suggests that the crack is from thermo-shock (I defer to your wisdom) and not oxygenation.
A few minutes with my pressure washer shows that there is a good layer of calcium build up adhering tightly to the inside of the boiler. (I assume calcium)

Is it possible to use chemicals to remove calcium without harming the cast? or do I plan on spending hours trying to remove this layer of inefficiency and potential hazard knowing that blasting around the corners is near to impossible?

ceg

cgutha

I have learned long ago that if I ignore something while designing something, that is the one thing that will bite me in the tail. So far, I have ignored the expansion of the pipes The main now runs roughly sixty-five feet before turning 90 degrees to the south for thirty-five ish feet. Then west the sixty-five feet and north the thirty-five feet. Another turn east, fifteen feet to pass the boiler and drop as the return line. All this with a total of fourteen risers.
I imagine the summer and current install temperature is sixty degrees. the ideal running temperature is 213 degrees. Should I be concerned?

cgutha

It looks as though sixty-five feet of black-pipe expands just short of one inch. I better make allowances. how did the dead guys do it?

Jamie Hall

cgutha said:

It looks as though sixty-five feet of black-pipe expands just short of one inch. I better make allowances. how did the dead guys do it?

Usually if there are nice long straight sections on either side of an elbow, they can flex enough to take up the expansion -- provided you don't anchor them down so tightly that they can't move side to side or lengthwise. From your description of your piping I would think that there would be ample room for the pipes to move around enough to take up the expansion. However do make sure that they are hung or supported in such a way that they can move around horizontally a bit!

JUGHNE

I look at an old church here, piped in 1915...single pipe system.
3" main goes west 15', 90's south for +100' then 90's east for about 15'.....2" steam main return comes back the 100' to the boiler room where air vents are located.
Mirror image for east side and west side. The system has no leaks and is quiet as a church mouse. Only large rad pings and clinks.
There are about 7-8 take off on each side.

I have been over every foot of this piping. Where someone tried to patch the wall plaster where the 100' pipe penetrates that has and always will crack out.

Many of the take offs are off the top of the pipe with a 90 and short run out of maybe only 3'. There are swing 90's for the rad valve risers. These fittings let the main expand/contract without issue.
The longer the run out, the less effect from the expansion of the main.

The only issue I have had is, when using tear shaped/Auto Grip type clevis hangers, is that they will "walk" around on the pipe with pipe movement. The longer the 3/8" rod supporting these the less "walking" of the clevis hanger, at the longer rod will swing back and forth keeping the hanger in place.

The worst scenario would be to have a top take off going straight up thru the floor what would prevent any horizontal movement of the steam main.

cgutha

I can understand the 90' takeoff pivoting with the 3' swivel, but a 45 degree takeoff will not swivel the same way.

cgutha

It has taken a lot of work. I have replaced the seals and ropes between sections on the right half of the boiler. (EGH95 splits into two parts with a third tension bolt holding the two parts together). It appears that my brazing on the upper cracks worked. but there appears to be another lower crack I need to find and repair. I filled the boiler this morning and added chemical for cleaning.
i have a long way to go before it passes my inspection.
Part of me wonders if I would be better off separating all the sections and clean them individually. but for now it is together and soaking.
If I find and successfully patch that lower leak, and if I can remove all the scale so the efficiency returns to original, then I will complete the near boiler piping. The equalizer no longer lines up the way it once did because I reworked the header (Drop header, no bullnose Tee) I also added valves so I can valve it off and pressure test it to the 55psig recommended in the manual.
Most of the boiler jacket is reusable. but I will need to replace the back burner section. This comes with the burner pan, except I am planning to change the EGH95 burners to a duel burner: E30 and EG55. The idea here is to run the EG30 continuously at temperatures below 35 degrees with the EG55 supplementing the demand as needed (to the design temp of -30F). This past year for example, we spent many months at thirty to twenty with only two weeks at -30. such mild winters are rare, but this design would compensate for the abnormality. The idea is to simulate more closely the original coal boiler which ran continuously.
To accomplish this, I will need to balance a duel vaporstat system to control two sets of burners. Hope it works. Although I have the one 95 valve, i am probably better off with new valves also. I will test everything, This boiler was obviously not cared for properly. I appear to have two sets of boiler trim. I think someone was going to replace parts, but did not know what they were doing or something.
I still wonder if the boiler was run dry then cold water added. but the sections appear to be solid. The mud is an eighth inch thick. (That layer of insulation may have saved it.) However, the more I work with the boiler, the more the mud appears to loosen.

i have a long way to go, I hope to have it tested, inspected and running by next heating season.

ceg

Steamhead

Pictures?

cgutha

I tore the boiler apart again to look for that little crack on the bottom of the section.
I removed the rust with a wire brush.
one hole is about the size of a dime.
the other maybe a Nickle sized triangle.
maybe a crack spidering off that from the corners.
a possible crack along the length where the section and the leg join. I can't tell if it is a crack or manufacture seam.
There is still enough sediment that I can use it to bridge the gap and hold the braze.
At this point I have nothing to loose so I brazed it. if it holds long enough to clean, then I have that much done.
good thing the boiler was never cleaned. the water would have poured out quite quickly. as it is, the wall of sediment is enough to hold the water in.
the chances of reusing this section has gone down.

ceg

cgutha

The flash on my camera .... well, I do not know. This shows the boiler core with the risers, header and return pipe snaking its way through.
The picture is a couple of weeks old.
This is a bit more current. I learned to set the lights to compensat for the lack of flash.
The original header was welded. I rotated it 90 degrees then added the elbows so now I have threaded fittings with a drop header. (cost saving toreuse the original header this way) I changed the tee and added an elbow so the equalizer is not longer a bullnose. Then you will notice the diagonal separator. This is a six inch pipe two foot long. I stole this from the book "Superheater" from the superheater company Chicago ill. They used them on locomotives (the dome) and I always wanted to build one. now that I have proven that my design for a steam engine will not work efficiently, I placed it here. it is a dryer. the steam on the coldest day will slow to 7.2 feet per second. keeping my steam dry. (adding to the efficiency?) It is at an angle so fit between the joists.
behind it you can see the end of the main, the fourteenth riser and the vent tree. the return line will be very short.
I used as much of the original pipe as possible.

another picture showing the details. The gas pipe comes through the wall here. I will paint it yellow.


here is the detail of the dryer. the three inch pipe has a slat along the sides for the steam to enter, it was described well in the book, no longer in existence.
hope these pictures work

cgutha

Hi everyone. The right section came in and I have the block assembled. The EG, EGH manual says to hydrotest the boiler at 55 psi. so that is where I am.
Welding is not like riding a bike. one forgets. it is like playing the piano. I found many leaks in my welds. but I did have it up to 55 psig. I rebuilt the right half of the block. The I suppose I should rebuild the left half also. the block holds water, but I see moisture between the sections of the left half.

I think that when I complete this project, my urge and desire to rebuild and restore things will be satisfied.

mattmia2

I didnt read all 4 pages of this, but if you have multiple cracks the sections are likely rotting from the inside out, probably from ignored leaks and lots of fresh water being added.

Is your header sloping toward the equalizer? It sort of looks like it is pitched the other way.

cgutha

I will put the level on the header again. The camera may be playing tricks.
I figured out that I am using the wrong stick with my welding and am going over the welds with 3/8 7018. I did not have enough heat to melt in the 1/8 6011.
The sections are not leaking. However, I noticed that the seals over time, become thin. so I have decided to replace all the gaskets. it will take an hour if I do it now. If I put the boiler together and wait a year, it will take a day or two.
As for the integrity of the sections themselves, I do not know. They are older. They may be thin. but they test good.
My plan is to put the steam separator back in and test everything to the king valve. I am hoping that it will hold water at 55 psi for a day. then I will chemically clean the boiler. The rest is a summer job. I need to get back to the winter remodel. There are two bathrooms calling me along with the floor and woodwork.
ceg

JUGHNE

Glad to hear from you again.
I stopped there in the summer of 2018.

I admire your ambition and gumption on this project, especially with that boiler.

On the wall here a few years ago, Dan had a story of people in NY apartments that had devised a "cozy" tent for 1 pipe steam rads to prevent overheating.
It had a small fan controlled by a remote tstat or WIFI to then heat the room as needed.

I wonder if in your situation for heating control if you simply covered each room rad with a heavy quilt and the bath towels until the room was rented out.
Then place the warmed quilt on the bed upon check in.
Leave the towels in place until needed.

Being close to ND, I can appreciate the hot quilt on the bed and preheated towels, if I had been outside most of the day.

This would in effect cut down on the steam load, as less condensation would take place in the rad. But still provide enough heat to maintain the room in standby.

Better perhaps than valving off each rad, hoping the shut off was 100% tight.

Just a crazy idea that popped into my head.