one pipe steam or two pipe hot water

SWEI

With small boilers: 30 PSI relief valves are intended for hot water boilers, 15 PSI relief valves are for steam boilers.

JUGHNE

Boiler name plate may indicate the needed capacity of the relief.
That is how large it is and quick it could drop pressure if needed.

Bigger boiler means bigger capacity needed. Your boiler is larger than most residential, but not that large.
You still want 15 PSI rating though.

nicholas bonham-carter

If your system gets up to the 15 psi rating of the PRV, then the vents will be toast, as well. Make sure you have a low-pressure gauge, and a vaporstat, along with generous main venting. With careful maintenance, you should cruise along at 3 ounces, with some periods of 14 ounces during recoveries.
As I said before, get the system working, and you will likely find that TRV's are not needed on a balanced system.
When it is running once again, then make a list of any symptoms, and we can advise solutions.--NBC

cgutha

Thanks guys, nbc
Adding the word "Steam" to my search proved successful in my search for relief valves.
The definition of "Low pressure steam" is anything lower than 15 psi. But you are correct. I do not want to protect the boiler only, I want to protect the entire one pipe system. I want the valve to be set at the lowest pressure possible.
I found a technical paper. The lowest pressure allowed is two pounds above the Maximum Working Pressure. Therefore I want a valve set at three or four psig. (PSI according to the gauge)
Also, the minimum venting capability of the valve is equal to or greater than the BTU input. In my case I will have nine 4500 watt heat elements. at 3421 btuh per Kw, I need a relief in excess of 190Kbtu,
Synrg: Thanks for the tip leading to wavyglass. From there I found a link to thehistoricdistrict. I opened a thread there trying to chase down my shutter question. http://www.thehistoricdistrict.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=476&p=5578#p5578
ceg

SWEI

Your Pressuretrol will prevent the boiler from exceeding a couple of PSI regardless. The PRV is required by law and most (small ones anyway) are not adjustable. I'm not sure if the adjustable ones even meet code for that application. Buy the 15 PSI valve and sleep well.

jumper

Getting back to original questions. If you're going to use thermal storage easiest way is new hydronic. For steam you can use ceramic or high temperature thermal fluid. Lots and lots of thermal fluid. And you'll need an unfired boiler to produce steam.In my day Ameritherm made what you need.I doubt that you'd want to spend that much. If you love the look of old column radiators leave them in but don't bother repairing the one steam pipes.

cgutha

Swie: I did find a 5 psi SRV. I have mechanical pressuretrols, but I think I will need to add some kind of electronic sensor to get the 2, 6 and 12 oz sensitivity and setpoints.

By the way, I notice the original relief valve is still on the old boiler, (not that I would trust it without sending it to the company to be recertified)

I nearly have my electric boiler completed. (Do not try this at home) I am waiting for a book that may or may not help in designing one pipe steam. I am told that it is delayed due to snow. I guess the rest of the country is having winter. We here in North Dakota are enjoying 20's and 40's. There might be four inches out there. (twist the knife).

Jumper: I have decided to keep what I have. This discussion has convinced me of the simplicity of one pipe steam. Although the second system did have a pump and trap, I believe the original was parallel flow with gravity feed. (coal fired with stoker). I believe I can return the system to parallel flow, dry return and gravity feed.

The part that I recommend not doing at home is converting a hot water heater into a boiler. Although a hot water heater is a pressure vessel designed to operate at 120 psi, cutting and welding is for the certified. A lot of research, drawing and testing must go into this before it goes online. The fact that I have a lot of spare parts laying around helps keep the cost down. But remember, I have worked on high pressure boilers for 25 years. One mistake will bring down the house. As one book said, "No one has ever survived a boiler explosion." I have seen first hand the results of furnace explosions. Again I say, do not try this at home.
By the way, for you steam heads, I also belong to Steam Automotive Club of America http://www.steamautomobile.com/ForuM/

ceg

JUGHNE

Does North Dakota have a state agency that does boiler inspections for public occupied buildings? I believe in Crosby, ND at the steam tractor show, there was documentation for each steam boiler on exhibition, being a public area.

As you know In NE this agency is handled thru the Dept. of Labor, I am only familiar with what is needed for my limited endeavors, but one thing they are always looking for is the ASME stamp on boilers. Their inspection on a new boiler installation is often done by the insurance inspector, in my case the Hartford Company. FWIW

cgutha

jughne: I was thinking of that. Even if the state does not require such a stamp, the insurance company should. This is a question that I will need to refer to my friends at Steam Automotive Club.

Jumper: My idea is to heat the water through the latent phase. The only way I know when this is achieved is to treat it as low pressure steam.
In talking with the storage units in this area, I learned that they heat only ceramics and are not interested in using water as a medium. To transfer from ceramics to water, if that is what you are talking about, is another step. Each transfer, as you know, reduces efficiency and increases complexity.
What I am looking at now is: electricity converts to water heat. Water heat (steam) flows through the pipes and radiators via convection and radiation. Simple.
The only possible flaw is controlling the room temperatures as discussed above.
I am building a small boiler (40 gal) to test the theories and practice such control.

My intention is to find my camera and send pictures when it is done. Hopefully next week.
ceg

vaporvac

@cgutha , I thought they sold electric steam boilers in Canada. which could be used as a reference point.
I love that you're now really into the beauty of steam.

cgutha

The book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" Finally arrived Friday. (after 10 days) It was delayed by snow, sleet and hail. I do not order anything "Next Day" because it takes a week for mail to get here anyway.
The first chapter reminded me that I want to get exact measurements of the original system. I need to know exactly what the designers had in mind.
I know that I have 1152 EDR, but I do not know the distances or the equivalent distances.
I was also reminded that I forgot to dry the steam.
One pipe is an interesting animal. I think I need to start at the beginning in my learning. Everything is different down here at the ultra low pressures.
I have only read to chapter 5, I have a long way to go.
The boiler I am building might be good for small experiments, but will not work for the scale I was thinking.
as my drafting teacher once told me, it is easier to change a line on paper than it is to move a wall after it is built.
ceg

cgutha

I started measuring the original. I will try to get it exact.
The original boiler had a water lever four feet from the ceiling. The riser was 4" dia, splitting at a bullhead tee. The main feed line is 3", a secondary line is 2"dia. some of the risers are set at a 90, some are 45s.
The length of the primary feed is about 105 feet, 356 equivalent.
That 5' loop I asked about at the end of the run indicates that originally this was a dry return.
When I finish, I will attach a spread sheet and drawing.
ceg

cgutha

When I started this project, I had an idea of storing heat as saturated water and using the latent heat as a source in a hot water heating system. This large supply of energy could be tapped throughout the day via a three-way valve controlling heat loops. The idea is to supply the proper temperature to meet the load. The technology is there and reasonably simple as well as refined.
The fact that I already have a one pipe steam heat system in the house offers the exciting opportunity to rebuild this. For years I have wondered about using the energy and expansive power of steam in this pressure range, but never considered that this was the principle and use of one-pipe.
As a boiler operator dealing with high pressure steam, my experience tells me to match the load with the fire. Cycling the boiler on and off is the worst thing to do. By matching the load, I prevent the stress of cycling: adding to the life of the boiler and system. I hated it when electronic upgrades came along taking this control from me. I never could teach the computer how to manage and anticipate the load.
The question now is: can all this be married? I have read only to chapter 6 or so. There is much more for me to learn.
On reading the chapter concerning boiler sizing, I learned that the boiler is sized to the system, not the house. Also, the system was designed for open windows. (My wife will like that if I tell her.)
So one question is: once the pipes and radiators are warm, (full fire) can the fire be reduced to meet the heat load of the house? With a combination of under-firing and vent-control can the boiler stay lit and the rooms comfortable without using the open window method?
If I insulate the house to where 120kbtu will heat it, and I still need 340k to start the system. can I throttle back to 120k (or less in winters like this) so I do not need to cycle on and off. Maybe I just have to get over the fact that one-pipe steam is controlled with boiler cycles. but this goes against my grain. Besides, one did not cycle the old coal heater did they? I would prefer not to heat the outside of the house. Does anyone have experience in this?
ceg

KC_Jones

I think you need to talk to @MarkS about his control and burner set up. He is running a Midco modulating burner in his steam boiler and has designed his own control system. He can explain it much better than I can.

jumper

How to store latent heat with hot water?

As for running continuously at part load you can do it if you can modulate your burner. I'd plug all vents and evacuate air mechanically.

cgutha said:

When I started this project, I had an idea of storing heat as saturated water and using the latent heat as a source in a hot water heating system. This large supply of energy could be tapped throughout the day via a three-way valve controlling heat loops. The idea is to supply the proper temperature to meet the load. The technology is there and reasonably simple as well as refined.
The fact that I already have a one pipe steam heat system in the house offers the exciting opportunity to rebuild this. For years I have wondered about using the energy and expansive power of steam in this pressure range, but never considered that this was the principle and use of one-pipe.
As a boiler operator dealing with high pressure steam, my experience tells me to match the load with the fire. Cycling the boiler on and off is the worst thing to do. By matching the load, I prevent the stress of cycling: adding to the life of the boiler and system. I hated it when electronic upgrades came along taking this control from me. I never could teach the computer how to manage and anticipate the load.
The question now is: can all this be married? I have read only to chapter 6 or so. There is much more for me to learn.
On reading the chapter concerning boiler sizing, I learned that the boiler is sized to the system, not the house. Also, the system was designed for open windows. (My wife will like that if I tell her.)
So one question is: once the pipes and radiators are warm, (full fire) can the fire be reduced to meet the heat load of the house? With a combination of under-firing and vent-control can the boiler stay lit and the rooms comfortable without using the open window method?
If I insulate the house to where 120kbtu will heat it, and I still need 340k to start the system. can I throttle back to 120k (or less in winters like this) so I do not need to cycle on and off. Maybe I just have to get over the fact that one-pipe steam is controlled with boiler cycles. but this goes against my grain. Besides, one did not cycle the old coal heater did they? I would prefer not to heat the outside of the house. Does anyone have experience in this?
ceg

cgutha

I am up to the chapter on venting. In high pressure steam and low presser, we add oxygen scavengers to remove the oxygen. O2 is the enemy.
But one-pipe breaths. This is a different animal. I have a feeling that when properly tuned and sized one-pipe is the best system ever. Unfortunately, very few people understand it fully. Every time I turn a page I learn something new. I want to thank you all again for your help. At this point, I am glad that my target to have the heating system up and running is next season. It looks like it will take that long to learn what I have and what the original design was.
This building was built before the Hartford loop and before venting was perfected. Maybe Saturday I will have time to map out the entire system and check all the piping.
If (since) the building was designed in an era where the windows were left opened at night, maybe insulating the building is not so important. Tuning the system should come first.
One pipe steam heat is a different animal.
ceg

SWEI

cgutha said:

If (since) the building was designed in an era where the windows were left opened at night, maybe insulating the building is not so important.

Perhaps not immediately, but over time, it is still one of the best investment you will ever make. I would insulate before I redesigned/recommissioned the system, or at least factor in the new envelope conditions as part of the total design.

Storing steam falls into the 'nontrivial' box. You're going to have to heat something hot enough (and keep it there long enough) to generate stem as needed over the course of the following 16 hours or so. It may not be economically feasible. I certainly wouldn't even consider it until I knew how far the envelope could be tightened at an acceptable cost.

cgutha

I finished the one pipe steam part. now to go back and review chapter four. and to check every pipe sizing and radiator. a lot of the pipes were cut between the second and third floor. I need to inventory those also. I kind of want to get this right the first time.
since this was designed originally as a coal burner, it should handle a constant supply of steam from a steam storage tank. The oversizing can be remedied by eliminating some radiators. but that is a future step after I understand completely what one pipe is doing.
ceg

nicholas bonham-carter

You can store many things for later use, but not steam, as it must be kept hot, and that would use more fuel.
Just get this system working, and then make it efficient. Keep the radiators you have, and see how the system behaves.--NBC

JUGHNE

I agree with Nicholas, it sounds like you have a lot of things on your plate with this building. Being a B&B/rooming house/hotel you are perhaps subject to boiler inspections. Your plans sound as though they would complicate any approvals needed.
You already have the electrical inspector on board and may need to talk to the Fire Marshall for your area.....exits....egress....emergency lighting...fire sprinkler...etc.

LP gas is probably dropping in price for now. It has that advantage that you buy and store it perhaps when the price is low.
All IMO

jumper

If cgutha is set on steam with thermal storage he should learn about vacuum one pipe. With thermal storage he can modulate even better than with solid fuel. First step is to get prices and sizes for possibilities. Low pressure water,high pressure water,and thermal fluid.If he doesn't have the budget,or doesn't have the room,then he has to reconsider.

cgutha

The steam storage "boils down" to using electric heat while the rates are cheep and LP when that is not available.
The book mentioned the partial vacuum used with coal heat. I doubt that I have those air vents though.
Yes, there is a lot on my plate. but not too much. just take it one step at a time. consider it as a whole and as individual parts. Keep the overview and the details.
ceg

cgutha

I am evaluating the original system. all main vents are missing. some pipes to the third floor are cut/removed. the second boiler system installed a wet condensate return with pump. The water level of the original system was 4' from the ceiling, the second system is about two feet lower. the original was coal, the second is LP.
The second changed the main supply by adding 20 or 30 effective feet to it and the secondary supply by about 30 or 40 effective feet. The five foot loop on the secondary is still there.

so, after one insulates the building, the heating system becomes way oversized -- about three times larger than needed. I can move the smallest radiators to better match the loads, eliminate some as I merge rooms, and Use TRVs in each room to increase efficiency.
but after the pipe is warm, and all 32 radiators are satisfied, the boiler shuts off. can I use a vacuum system (like some old coal systems did) with a TRV?

nicholas bonham-carter

Remember that the radiators are sized, along with the boiler to keep the radiators fully hot at your design temperature of -10 degrees. On milder 20 degree days, the radiators will only be heated to one half of their thermal mass, with the boiler cycling every hour to keep the cast iron hot enough to keep the inside temperature at the thermostat setting. The radiators will not be filled with steam on these days.
If you move radiators around, you will probably have to switch the spuds around as well in order to keep them matched with their original valves.
I'm surprised that in studying for your boiler license, that no information on steam heating was included in the course. --NBC

jumper

nicholas bonham-carter said:

I'm surprised that in studying for your boiler license, that no information on steam heating was included in the course. --NBC

I'm not. I respect anyone with a high pressure operator's certificate,but comfort heating is not part of the deal. Besides fifty psi steam heating works differently than zero psi heating.

cgutha

Water has many faces doesn't it? The more I learn the more I realize I do not know. Now, I am learning about that vast gray area of latent heat and the pressure just above saturated steam. The makers of steam engines avoid it. It provides no useful work. Steam turbines avoid it. The condensate will throw a turbine out of balance and rip them apart. For a long time I have thought about this great waste of energy, but now I have entered this different world.
Here is what I understand so far: When the call for heat is received, the boiler fires at maximum. In the case of the second boiler, 400,000 btuh.
Depending on the system pressure, (saturated water) the water reaches 212 degrees absorbing the latent heat. eventually, it starts to boil expanding from roughly one cubic inch to one cubic foot in volume, or about 27 cubic foot per pound of steam.
If the mains are properly vented, the steam displaces the air in the main. If the (23) risers are vented, the steam also displaces the air in these. this represents about one third pound of steam, or if the pipes were filled with condensate, about sixty gallons of water.
having filled the supply lines and risers, the steam is now available to fill the radiators. If the TRV is calling for heat, some steam is allowed to enter.
The boiler, by the way, firing at 400,000 btuh has by now reached it's cut out pressure and shut off, or (better) throttled back to low fire. (Maybe I only need 20,000 btuh to heat the house this fine spring day.)
In an ideal world, the radiator fills with just enough steam to maintain room temperature as allowed by the TRV. The pipes and risers remain charged with dry steam, the condensate flows back to the boiler, and the boiler throttles back to heat just enough to replace the heat loss.
All we have to do is make it work ... there are details to consider.

ceg

cgutha

nicholas bonham-carter said:
I'm surprised that in studying for your boiler license, that no information on steam heating was included in the course. --NBC

I wrote a friend who belongs to the Steam Automotive Club of America, He works at GM and many of you may be driving vehicles with engines he helped evaluate. Here is his response:

Hi Charles,
Steam heating is a different beast than power engineering. In power engineering, latent heat of vaporization is lost because you are adding or removing energy from the working fluid in its liquid state, there is no practical way to recover the energy by expanding the water.
By contrast, in steam heating, your goal is to transfer energy from the working fluid to whatever is to be heated. It makes no difference if the working fluid is steam, water or even ice, nor whether sensible or latent heat is transferred. The only requirement is that the working fluid has a higher temperature than whatever is to be heated so that heat can actually flow.
...
I'm sure the above probably doesn't address your comments but I admit to being uncertain that I have enough background in this particular area to explore it adequately.

Regards, ...

I am grateful to you all for helping me decide to keep the steam.
My next step is to evaluate the current system. Then I need to clean the second boiler and get it back on line.

Steamhead

I believe when he says the "second boiler" he is talking about the newer one. The original is a brick-set coal-fired boiler not unlike that used in steam locomotives, which would be horribly inefficient.

The Steam Whisperer

A word of caution using steel studs. using steel studs allow heat to be conducted around the insulation between the studs. IIRC A typical 5 1/2 inch wall with wood studs will give you and average r-value around 16. With steel studs it can drop to about 4 or 5. This is especially the case if the studs are attached to the masonry exterior. Use wood furring and you'll be much better off. Check out the DOE website....they probably have more info. Also, the typical payback on replacement windows is 42 years.

JUGHNE

Fire codes may require him to use steel studs. But it seems wood would be preferred. 5/8" SR on each side of wood sometimes qualifies for fire rating. You would think 5/8 SR on one side and brick on the other side (outside walls) would suffice for fire codes. (plus wood is easier to drill for electrical etc)

cgutha

Great comments.

Steal is a conductor. I will need to investigate the fire codes concerning outside walls, wood and fire stops.

Concerning the boilers: The first boiler, coal, 1906, will not be recommissioned. It may stay there as an artifact. (I have not torn apart the Water heater/bundle to see if it is salvageable) At present, The Boiler offers clues to the original intent and design.
The second boiler is the LP 400,000 BTU input. It is perhaps thirty years old. I will need to check the nameplate.
I am considering a third, electric, off-peak/storage. This will run in lieu of the LP when energy is available. The Current LP will then become the backup. The second boiler will also need refitted with a variable furnace. I prefer matching the boiler to the load once the system is heated (I think of it as the pipes being "Charged": Dry steam available at the radiator, No air in the pipes).

The current/original EDR, by radiator count. is 1152.
The proposed is about 800. I intend to achieve this by combining a few rooms, removing some of the radiators, and replacing the larger radiators with the smaller ones (the six, seven and eight columns are replaced with the four and fives). This proposal is still oversized, but by adding TRVs, I can control each radiator at the room while leaving the steam pipes charged and the boiler on low fire. (I assume that I can find a controller that will keep the boiler at the proper pressure of a few ounces).

ceg

SWEI

Light gauge steel studs may not burn, but they do melt quite rapidly in fires. Wall assemblies have fire ratings, some built on light-gauge steel and some on wood. There are multiple options to reduce thermal bridging.

Fire rated ceiling assemblies (floor-to-floor) are required in most multifamily, mixed occupancy (residential over commercial), dorms, hotels, etc. Those are a fair bit more work to retrofit -- and the raison d'être for gypcrete, BTW.

ChicagoCooperator

I wouldn't be too concerned about the thermal bridging or melting rates of steel studs with two feet of brick - the masonry has some thermal mass and provides the structural framing. My worry would be condensation between the brick and insulation with a relatively moisture impenetrable layer of rigid insulation. I don't have a recomendation off the bat, but something to research further before making a choice of material. I would insulate the roof and weatherstrip the windows and get storm windows first. I'm thinking that the shutter mountings may have been added and used either for closing up the building part of the year or summer shutters allowing windows to be kept open while providing shade and privacy - there are similar mounts on the Auditorium Building in Chicago which was originally a hotel.

cgutha

I found a site where we are discussing shutters. http://www.thehistoricdistrict.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=476&p=6048#p6048

cgutha

A great mistake in insulating old buildings is ignoring the moisture content of the building. A wood frame house in particular will not hold paint if the Vapor barrier is omitted. Vapor barrier is a must in insulating and super insulating.
ceg

cgutha

The current piping violates certain designs recommended by the book. Most of the pipes come into the main from the top rather than at a 45' angle. The risers appear to be 1" or 1/14" max. These are too small. Perhaps a drip leg will cure both problems cheaply.
There are a few other concerns I have also.
ceg

JUGHNE

Steam tapped off the top is not the preferred connection. But I have seen a few that do not produce any problem....the returning condensate is the issue. The length of the run out and size of the rad. Book says you lose 5% capacity, but you claim having too much radiation anyway. Consider what it would take to "correct" this.

I would just get the boiler operational and start from there...are you sure the boiler holds water? Don't worry about sizes right now just get it working and then study the operation.
Moving rads around will require you to move the matched valve with the rad.

You could try the TRV's on the existing rads for capacity control, this would in effect lower the connected EDR of that unit.....as long as your pressure was low and cycled for the rads to breath in new air. This prevents overheating for that unit.

You and I have a pretty mild winter this year, but we all know "real ND winter" will return so you may not be as oversized as you believe. IMO

cgutha

I ordered this winter because I knew I was not ready for a real winter. Next winter I must be ready.

I noticed that the main slopes about one inch in ten feet. This is twice the minimum recommended in the book. I wonder (not having turned the system on yet) if this makes a difference in taking the steam from the top. I will not really know until I run the boiler.
The boiler has been dry for at least two years and from what I have seen in the near boiler piping, it was left dirty. This bothers me. It is time to clean it and at minimum lay it up dry, or clean it, inspect it and test it. This second boiler has a water level about 24 inches below the original. The header bullheads into the equalizer and main. At present, neither the gas nor electric is hooked to it. The former occupant was dead set on converting to electric.
I have not inventoried how many risers actually go to the top floor. I did figure out the reason I do not see holes in some of the second floor rooms is because they already have new ceilings.
As for keeping the valves and radiators matched. Most of the radiators still have the original valves with them.
I am both learning and inspecting. I am not in a hurry. Not yet. I respect steam too much.
ceg

cgutha

I wish I had more information from "Not a Residential System". All I have is the records of the fuel bill. WOW!
After reading "The Forgotten Art of Steam Heating" I found several violations of the best practices. This is not surprising as this system was built before One-Pipe was perfected.
I have bull-headed tees. Most of the lines come off at 90 degrees rather than 45. I have the five foot loop at the end of the second main - although the first does not go through it. I found the original return loop. It also goes under the concrete floor before returning to the boiler.
On the up-side, The radiators, vents and valves appear to be intact if not original. many of the pipes have been cut between the second and third floor but they are still there. I have not inventoried vents on the risers. the main vent is absent, now siting on a shelf as I found it in a previous cleaning. The slope of the main is twice what is recommended for one pipe parallel flow. (That might be why the system worked in the first place.)
The original boiler is still in place so I can tell what the original system looked like. (I have decided not to remove it and keep it as a museum piece) The second boiler has a waterline 18 inches below the original. Is there an advantage to this or is this simply where it landed when the installer set the "new" boiler on the floor and welded it to the old header? (I am thinking of raising it 18 inches to bring the water level back to original.)
The second boiler had a condensate return pump and reservoir. I am in favor of returning the system to a one pipe gravity flow. I am also looking at merging the two lines so the entire main continues around the basement with a short return rather than two lines splitting, ending on the opposite side of the house and a long return dipping under the floor. Mathematically, there is enough fall. The run would be 220 feet.
i think with proper venting of both the main and risers, the radiators would not know that they are 300 feet from the boiler and act independently with a individual control in each room.

What do you think. I have only what I have heard and no experience with one-pipe.
ceg

cgutha

By the way, I did find information as to the thermos conductivity of wood vs steel on the outside wall. I'm going back to wood.
ceg