New boiler blasted concrete underneath it. Any ideas why?

Bob Bona_4

Hmm. Usually the burner tubes have a half hoop where they locate on the orifices, it would be impossible to have them facing down and be able to fasten the hold - down panel that rests on the tubes. Very strange.

Robert O'Brien

You put a boiler in and don't at least hang around for a while? Combustion analysis, maybe?

Dave0176

Weil McLain burner tubes have round openings to go around the orfices. So it is possible to install upside down.

Gordy

There is also the pan under the burners......suppose to be.

ChrisJ

If possible do a quick visible inspection of the cast iron block. It's a pretty sturdy item and will take an awful lot of abuse. If there's no cracks in the sides near the burner area and it's not leaking any water I'd assume you're safe.

The burner tray and tubes on the other hand, I'd want to have a close look at them and make sure none are bent, dented, clogged etc.

When I first fired up my EG-45 after installing it, I heard two loud pops from the concrete, but my basement had flooded from Irene a month or two before so there was some moisture there. Never found any cracks or missing concrete though and it never happened since. I also suspect that happened directly where the block sits on the concrete and not under the burners as I think you can literally hold your hand under them and not really feel heat due to the draft being pulled.


Can you take pictures of the damaged area? Do you have any of when it first happened?

ChrisJ

Also, I doubt a stuck damper would cause an issue.
The system should still draft normal even with a closed damper or blocked flue due to the design of the drafthood. It'd just spill into the room behind the boiler but no extra heat should build up under the block or anything.

JUGHNE

It may have been stated, but is this NG or propane?

ChrisJ

JUGHNE said:

It may have been stated, but is this NG or propane?

Are you thinking delayed ignition with LP?
These systems use a flame rod that needs to see rectified current which proves the pilot is lit.

Gordy

I'm sure the concrete was saturated with moisture from old leaker,and new installation.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

I'm sure the concrete was saturated with moisture from old leaker,and new installation.

I tend to agree.

Gordy

I did not realize the block was so close to the floor. Seems hard to believe if everything was correct that the burner tubes could be blown out of place.

BobC

Shrapnel can do a lot of damage. Your boiler block is probably fine but I would inspect it carefully to be sure.

Bob

JUGHNE

Chris, very familiar with the flame sensor process. Now image burner firing correctly and introduce another path for gas to pass. Such as the 1/8" pressure port plug (if any) missing or loose. This is a very memorable experience.......I know.

With LPG the gas would settle to the floor or bottom of heat exchanger and layer up to find ignition source. NG would go up the HX and burn randomly.

I guessing this is NG and the radiant heat cooked the absorbed water into steam and it popped after the 40 minutes of operation. (The power of steam!)

Gordy

Heating help CSI

JUGHNE

Electrical wire in the 60-70s' had warnings on the boxes "Do not store near boilers". This was when wire insulation was type T or TW, lower rating for temperature. Now with high temp wire I have not seen that warning for a long time. I guess the radiant heating could melt/soften/change the thermoplastic of that day.

Also read something about not installing PVC/DWV piping under the concrete below a boiler for the same reasons.

SWEI

Make sure nothing gets thrown away until cause and responsibility are determined.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

I did not realize the block was so close to the floor. Seems hard to believe if everything was correct that the burner tubes could be blown out of place.

Yep, on the EG series the cast iron block literally sits on the floor.
This is the best picture I can find of mine before I put all of the panels on. Was messing around with fittings to get an idea of what I wanted to build.

There's some covers that go across the front and back but the burner tray literally just slides into that big opening and also rests on the floor. The tubes are a few inches above the floor but I doubt much heat comes off of the burners them selves, I suspect most is from the block.

Fred

I'm with the theory that a tube was installed upside down. Aside from the burner tubes themselves, I would doubt that the boiler got damaged. I would think the burner tubes would have acted like a grid/shield protecting the underside of the boiler and the controls. Just my thinking. I would also think that if a burner tube were installed upside down, there would be tell tale signs on the concrete, like a straight line of burn/discoloration on the slab.

Gordy

Hmmm I'll bet that sucks some heat out of that block. I'm still at a loss if it happensed in the center. I could see under one side or the Other. Still don't see how the burners got dislodged if the pan was in place. Or if a burner was installed upside down, and the pan were in place pan should be warped. I don't know what the flame would even be like upside down.

ChrisJ

Gordy said:

Hmmm I'll bet that sucks some heat out of that block. I'm still at a loss if it happensed in the center. I could see under one side or the Other. Still don't see how the burners got dislodged if the pan was in place. Or if a burner was installed upside down, and the pan were in place pan should be warped. I don't know what the flame would even be like upside down.

Ends of the burner tubes just lay in slots on the end bracket.
They can be lifted off from that end.

KC_Jones

Not sure what pan you are referring to, but there isn't anything under the burners on these. You have the burners and then the floor.

Fred

I would also think the installer would have made it a point to look at the flame on the first start up. It is weird all the way around.

Gordy

Okay KC my CGM series does, but it's not steamer, same burner tubes though.

Gordy

Makes upside down tube more plausible knowing that. No idiot note in the manual for that is there?

Fred

Doesn't look like a tube could have dropped off of the slot on the back. looks like there is maybe a 2" lip on that rail, under the tube. The ube would have just laid on that lip.

Gordy

Yeah Fred you would have thought the installer woul have had at least a 40 min burn to check everything.

Bob Bona_4

That's what I'm saying guys. Look at Chris J ' s burner rack. The burner hangs off the orfice hub. One cannot assemble the tube 180 from that, it cannot stay on the orfice hub. It's keyed, so to speak, to go only one way. Then, the front plate locks all the tubes down. I cannot conceive of an upside down tube. Even if it were remotely possible, imagine the smell and noise from a downfiring burner.

ChrisJ

Bob Bona said:

That's what I'm saying guys. Look at Chris J ' s burner rack. The burner hangs off the orfice hub. One cannot assemble the tube 180 from that, it cannot stay on the orfice hub. It's keyed, so to speak, to go only one way. Then, the front plate locks all the tubes down. I cannot conceive of an upside down tube. Even if it were remotely possible, imagine the smell and noise from a downfiring burner.

Wow, people looking at my rack...

No keys that I know of, the burners just slide over the orifice, it's a round hole on a round orifice. You'd have to intentionally go out of your way to put it in upside down though.

Fred

Even if the orifice and the burner tube hole are round, It looks like it would be impossible to lock the back of the tube into the rail if it were upside down.

ChrisJ

You guys must be seeing something I'm not.

KC_Jones

Chris and I both have these boilers, we installed them ourselves to say we are intimate with them is an understatement. I can tell you I DID put it in upside down on purpose to test if they really designed it this way. It is easily done if you are stupid. There is NOTHING to stop it from happening I factually know this as I tested it out. As I said in an earlier post I design for a living and I notice these things. Not to be rude, but you can speculate from pictures all you want, but I am telling you on this boiler you are factually incorrect. I am not saying that's what happened here just saying it's possible.

Canucker

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool

JStar

The ends of the burners have bent dog-ears, so they cannot be put in upside down. But, it's been said that's not the case? Hmmm.

KC_Jones

JStar said:

The ends of the burners have bent dog-ears, so they cannot be put in upside down. But, it's been said that's not the case? Hmmm.

If that's the case mine must be a factory defect because I did it and it was a real head scratcher for me.

ChrisJ

I'll have a look at my extra tube when I get home.

Bob Bona_4

Kc, did you fully re-assemble the burner rack wrong-way, and locked down the front panel correctly? I'm having a real tough time with this, I'd like to think WM engineered a go/no go situation. Wait...:)

You can bet the next time I lay my hands on one I'm going to check. In fact, I have 2 in one of my rentals and 3 in another. Even better, I recently pulled the burners a few weeks ago for a routine cleaning, and I guess unconciously reassembled them, because I can't recall any issues.

That might be the ticket, Joe, the dog ears. If you propped up that end because it didn't go in the slot, it could be deceiving if you can still slip the orfice end over the hubs. I would think you'd see interference when locking down the front panel from the angled tubes.

RLuck

I was standing next to a wm steam boiler when it did the same thing. Sounded like a shotgun blast, takes a few seconds to realize what happened and shut the gas off. The first time ever I had not installed on boiler blocks because of clearance issues. The conclusion we came to was the old old concrete. I think it was at one time a dirt floor. No the burners were not upsidedown.

Gordy

It can be done, and it sits the same either way.

Bob Bona_4

That's pretty bad Gordy. Except for the tube with the t-couple. Someone manages to flip that one, wow. Still going to check mine

Gordy

I'm wondering when the installer came back why some explanation was not given as to what happened?